By the time this post we will have had one more motion hearing on the motion to dismiss for a defective indictment. It was our contention that the indictment was what they call duplicitous and multiplicitous. I'm reasonably certain this will also be denied. I know most of you think that these denials are because I don't know what I am doing but that is not the case. I am very calculated and know every point I am making. What I am trying to prove is that this judge has left the range of sanity and has given way to whimsical vapor justice. Judge Alsup is playing the retard. If he was honest about his work he would know that these motions had to be granted. Suddenly he is not a studied jurist but as stupid as one of the sheeple corralled into jury duty. You have to play for the endgame because this game is all about psychological warfare. It is the art of deception played by professionals. We received our Probation report today with the sentence guidelines. It was a good report for many reasons not obvious to the average thinker. The obvious was that we were given 45 points. The scale stops at 43 so that means we are 2 points higher than the maximum sentence which is life. Are you getting scared yet? How many people still think I would take this kind of risk for the money? I may not have convinced some of you I'm not a criminal but hopefully most of you can suspect I'm not a stupid one. To sit around and file everything on the public record, stay put when the judge and FBI come a calling, and never raise my price or increase my sales potential is not wise. I must be motivated by something else. The reality of sentencing is up to the imagination since this whole thing is all wonderland. All the numbers, victims, and guidelines are make believe. The judge has one idea, the probation has another, and the courts have another. Button, button, whose got the button? What can be figured out between all these parties arguing is that I am right and the motions were on point. We discovered by this report that San Diego County has filed charges on us (ABZ133[02]). I know nothing of this case except the victim. You probably will be able to learn more with your effort. After I'm done with these dumbbells I'll have a short sprint left. This case is required to be dismissed based upon the victim being in this trial through jeopardy doctrine so it is no concern. If you think changing jurisdictions is a way around this doctrine then you are easily duped. Anyway all this bullshit law talk I just share with you for educational purposes. Anyone who has done any real study must leave wonderland. With these motions denied we should be headed to sentencing on March 18th. This is the day we have all been waiting for. The DETAILS magazine has delayed their article until after sentencing. I am delighted by this delay. I am certain that the article he wished to write will be completely different than he will be forced to write after March 18th. The government mouthpieces did not want to talk until after sentencing. How can I blame them? This is still the great unknown.
UPDATE: The motion hearing on the motion to dismiss for a defective indictment was vacated.
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52 comments:
The person writing as Kurt asked:
"How many people still think I would take this kind of risk for the money? I may not have convinced some of you I'm not a criminal but hopefully most of you can suspect I'm not a stupid one."
Your timing was off, Kurt. The program just didn't reach critical mass fast enough. It was taking too long to actually get paying participants. Too many people were catching on. Then came the civil case disasters.
Just think if only five thousand people had actually jumped on the bandwagon in the first few months. Then consider what could have happened if time had been on your side and the scam presentments hadn't been recognized for what they really were.
Those five thousand new mortgages at just 100,000 each could have meant as much as 250 million for Dorean. You had an off-shore place to put the money and the smart guy you are you probably had a plan for being somewhere other than where the Justice Department could reach you.
So, yes, you were willing to take the risk.
But stupid? No. You're not stupid enough to actually believe it wasn't a scam, so what you are is dishonest and egomaniacal enough to never publicly admit it.
Amen!
You know, i hear the arguments that the DG was a scam thought up by Kurt the alleged scammer but theres one (of many) questions i just can't get past:
Why did they welcome reporters and even the "authorities" to see what they were doing?
Hmmmmmmmmm
Uh, Yeah, theives usually tell the cops when and where their going to hit next;)
I mean, if i was a trained investigator...wouldnt that throw up a flag? Of course, we know that the "investigators" were never interested in that.
But i know you guys have convinced yourselves that Kurt is public enemy #1 and theres nothing that THINKING adults can say that will change your minds.
Predictable answers from the bilge rat pack.There is no escaping the influence of moral principles in resolving legal disputes.
I agree with you Habakkuk.
Kurt has always communicated openly about what the DG was doing and offered it to the media; and challenged us to do our own homework.
Well, I've done my homework to the best of my knowledge, and I am yet to see a logical opinion on this blog that refutes my findings.
(1)I've conducted my research on Commerse Law, and how it plays out on the International stage.
(2)I've researched the loans process, and the bad behavior in the Mortgage industry. (3) I've researched Sovereign citizenship, and Trust Law. (4) I've also researched remedies that are lawfully available to me if the my lender behaved badly. I must admit that Kurt and Scott planned this brilliantly. And...I'm only speaking from a "natural" standpoint.
I will definitely continue watching to see how this whole process plays out.
Semper Fi...
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
Plaintiff,
v.
KURT F. JOHNSON and DALE SCOTT
HEINEMAN,
Defendants.
/
No. CR 05-00611 WHA
ORDER DENYING
DEFENDANTS' MOTION TO
DISMISS AND VACATING
HEARING
Defendants move to dismiss the indictment as being duplicative and for improperly
charging multiple parties for multiple offenses. According to FRCrP 12(b), a motion alleging a
defect in the indictment must be raised before trial. The trial ended in November 2007, when a
jury convicted both defendants of conspiracy and multiple counts of mail fraud. The motion is
untimely and is therefore DENIED. The motion for defense supplies to remain intact for appeal
and motion for payment of trial expenses shall be decided at the sentencing hearing on March
18, 2008. Because no hearing for the motion to dismiss is necessary, the hearing set for March
4, 2008, at 2:00 p.m. is hereby VACATED.
IT IS SO ORDERED.
Dated: February 28, 2008.
WILLIAM ALSUP
UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE
Thank you, Pauligirl. Any place I could see the motion itself? Just an academic interest, given the bilge previously served up by Kurt the Magnificent.
Comes now the Bilge Report for February 13, 2008 wherein Kurt makes a great deal of noise signifying nothing but a sinking barge, and rapidly dwindling supply of excuses for why he constantly fails.
Kurt, you can contend whatever you want, but as always, the facts make a fool of you. There was nothing wrong with the indictment(s) or any of the rest of the process, your wishful thinking aside, you lost!!!!
There is no think about it, YOU don't know what you are doing, you are making a colossal cockup of the whole thing and just digging your collective graves deeper every time you open your great big mouth and exercise your overblown ego and unbelievable ignorance of legal process and reality.
Your contentions and so called motions have no more legal validity or effect than any of the other nonsense you concocted. It was your vapor documents that got you into this in the first place, and it will be your vapor brain that concludes this exercise in the ridiculous. There was no reason on earth that the judge should have done anything other than he did considering the nonsense that you tried to pass off as a legal filing.
I find it amusing, that even with the writing writ large on the wall, you still delude yourself into believing it isn’t there. Not really my problem, you have been given ample warning of what the outcome was going to be and you have steadfastly refused to pay attention.
So San Diego is coming after you now, ah well, probably just one of a long list before it is all over with. The only problem is you will have to outlive your Federal sentence in order to serve the state sentences.
Just like you’ve been right about everything else in this farce, they wouldn’t have brought the case if they couldn’t proceed with it.
Just keep telling yourself the lies Kurt, your sentencing is the final lock on the door of your home for the rest of your life.
I will have to disagree with Judge Bean on a couple of points. I agree with his figures, I just think he seriously over estimates the abilities of the dim duo when it comes to doing anything competently.
I don’t believe Kurt’s timing was off, I think he was too incompetent to really get a good scam going, and his use of incredibly inept and generally useless marketing people doomed it from the start. Between big and foul mouthed brokers to general incompetents who couldn’t sell cemetery plots to their mothers they were doomed from the start.
The second argument against any real cleverness or ability was in Kurt handing over what funds he did get to another con man, who has now conveniently disappeared, and Kurt’s ill gotten gains will ne’er be seen by him again. Conning a bunch of desperate and unsophisticated people who wouldn’t know if they were being conned or not out of money is one thing, but to let yourself get conned out of your proceeds just plains speaks of general ineptness.
habakkaka had a stray through
Why did they welcome reporters and even the "authorities" to see what they were doing?
Does the word ego mean anything to you? Someone with the overblown ego and deep seated insecurities Kurt has has to show off and prove how “brilliant they” are and what better way that to mouth off in front of a reporter. After all Kurt was so brilliant, no one was ever going to catch him in his scam. Oh well, there goes another delusion.
You seriously overestimate anyone’s opinion or concerns for Kurt. In the scheme of the real world, he barely rates as a minor pimple on the ass of a warthog, and I suspect the warthog would object to the proximity.
habakkuk said . . .
Why did they welcome reporters and even the "authorities" to see what they were doing?
____________________________
Gee, hum, wonder why no reporters even bothered to show up????
Maybe because they knew it was a crock????
Gee, hum, wonder why no reporters even bothered to show up????
Maybe because they knew it was a crock????
___________________________________
THATS A LAME ANSWER....THE SO CALLED DEFRAUDED "LENDERS" NEVER SHOWED UP EITHER.
ANYBODY ELSE WANT TO TRY?
Hab I agree with you. Can anyone answer why Kurt would ask for a guilty verdict at the beginning of the trial? Seems like a big risk to me unless he has another agenda.
It was obvious from the very begining the facts would not matter. Pleading one case,trying another and lying to a confused jury.The entire bilge rat pack believes this was about the law and drones on endlessly of its merits and the valley of hell that will follow.I see it as purely business and the valley of Elah.
Habakkuk - the simple answer to your question is the publicity part of the plan. Most scams will try to paint a picture of legitimacy, sometimes even with sloppily contrived leaks about alleged "investigations." And they may even fool a few less-than-knowledgable media types in order to have something to point to for promotional purposes.
But the Dorean Group scam wasn't a big enough deal to rise above the noise floor of pressing criminal issues that more dramatically affect thousands of lives and involve many more millions of dollars.
Outside of some legal expenses for the businesses involved, in the long run the only major financial losers were the clients who fell for it and the rest of us as taxpayers who are going to be paying for Kurt and Scott's incarceration for years to come.
And the "lenders" didn't have to show up. The conspiracy to defraud was more than enough to put Kurt and Scott away.
If you and your little gang follow some guys into a parking lot, pull out a toy handgun and demand they hand over their wallets you've committed a crime whether or not they hand it over. And if the authorities were watching and caught you in the act, they don't even need the victim to testify, especially when members of your gang were willing to cooperate.
JDJD said...
Thank you, Pauligirl. Any place I could see the motion itself? Just an academic interest, given the bilge previously served up by Kurt the Magnificent.
-----------------------------
Kurt's motions are not available on Pacer. But the Response to the motion is here:
http://tinyurl.com/36uw3d
Scroll down to March 4th
"the simple answer to your question is the publicity part of the plan. Most scams will try to paint a picture of legitimacy, sometimes even with sloppily contrived leaks about alleged "investigations." And they may even fool a few less-than-knowledgable media types in order to have something to point to for promotional purposes."
HUH???!!! THATS A BIG STRETCH JUDGE. ITS BEEN MY EXPERIENCE THAT MOST PEOPLE WITH HONEST MOTIVES DISCLOSE WHAT THEY ARE DOING BECAUSE THEY GOT NOTHING TO HIDE. I MEAN, THEY EVEN SENT CLEAR PRESENTMENTS TO THEIR "VICTIMS" (BANKS) TO LET THEM KNOW WHAT WAS GOING ON.
"And the "lenders" didn't have to show up. The conspiracy to defraud was more than enough to put Kurt and Scott away."
LOL!!!! ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!!! LOL!!! DIDNT HAVE TO SHOW UP??? LET ME GIVE YOU SOME INFO....THEY NEVER SHOW UP. I THINK THEY ARE THE ONLY VICTIM IN THE HISTORY OF OUR JUDICIAL SYSTEM WHO GETS "VIOLATED" OVER AND OVER AGAIN AND NEVER SHOWS UP TO TESTIFY ABOUT IT. THEY MUST BE SO TRAUMATIZED THAT THEY CAN'T SPEAK;)
CAN I GET A REAL ANSWER FROM SOMEBODY....PLEASE.
Yo Hab. Its been laid out,right in front of you.
habakakka, the very first warning that something is a scam is when someone repeatedly assures you that it is perfectly legal and above board. That is a serious warning to the wise to run the other direction. The second would have been when the process was explained, that alone should have been warning enough, but either greed or just plain stupidity stepped in to ignore that warning. No scam artist that intends to stay out of jail for any length of time is going to hide in a corner and attract attention to himself. Instead he will out in plain sight assuring everyone of just how legal his scam is. The hope is that they will get their scam pulled off quick enough to avoid getting caught, works real well until an ego gets in the road and you start believing your own puffery. So they sent out presentments, big whooping deal, it was all part of the con. If the documents had been worth anything it might of mattered, as it was they were quite literally legally not worth the paper they were printed on. They were counting on inertia, and the fact that anyone remotely not brain dead would have simply tossed the garbage documents and forgotten about it. The only problem is that some of them got turned over to the FBI and the Comptroller and the scam got gaffed.
As usual, you and Moogs missed the clue bus. The charges were not that they defrauded the banks, but that that was what they were conspiring to do, and they were charged with mail fraud, which is usual the mails to file fraudulent documents. The crimes they were charged with do not require anyone to testify, except for the presentation of the fraudulent items. Plain, simple, and irrefutable. When dim bulbs signed and filed those papers, they committed fraud, and when he used the mails to do it he dragged the Feds in to it, and all they have to prove is that fraudulent documents were sent through the mails and it is 20 years a pop, plus the aggravating circumstances.
No, the problem is that you want an answer that agrees with your warped view of the universe. Ain’t a gonna happen, because what you want to hear has nothing to do with reality. The dim bulbs tried their con in civil court and it got tossed. It is nothing new or original, they just dressed it up a little bit, but it is so old it has whiskers on it. Vapor money theory has been tossed out of every court it has landed in, it is a dead item except among the snake oil peddlers. The rest of the nonsense is equally discredited and has been tossed out of every court it has shown its head in. There was not one part of the nonsense Kurt created that has one scintilla of validity to it, and whether you believe it or not is irrelevant. There is no great conspiracy or anything else, it is a crock. The reality is that everything Kurt promised was flat out impossible. If there is a problem with a mortgage, the ONLY venue to challenge it is in court. I am not saying that the banks or mortgage companies are angels or wonderful, but in this instance they are in the right. I am no great fan of banks or mortgage companies, but I do know how the processes work, and I do know nonsense documents when I see them, and that was all that was presented here. It was open and intentional fraud committed against them and also against the clients.
Why don’t you go do something novel like go and ask a real estate professional about Kurt’s fool proof plan, and when they quit laughing at you, they’ll tell it was a crock. If you don’t trust your banker to tell you the truth about how they get their money to loan, go talk to someone who teaches finance at a real accredited school and tell them your theories, and when they quit laughing at you they will explain how it really works. You won’t like the answers, because they won’t agree with what you want to believe. Tough. I’m tired of your mind numbing stupidity and intentional ignorance. You aren’t interested in information, you want agreement. I fear you are in for a life of severe disappointment.
Proverbs 14:7
Stay away from a foolish man, for you will not find knowledge on his lips.
FATHER, FORGIVE ME FOR WAISTING MY CONVERSATION ON FOOLS....WE WARNED ME OF IT AND NOW I SEE WHAT YOU MEAN.
FROM NOW ON I AM GOING TO LET G-D'S WORD SPEAK FOR ITSELF.
Job 12:16-18
16 Yes, strength and wisdom are his;
deceivers and deceived are both in his power.
17 He leads counselors away, stripped of good judgment;
wise judges become fools.
18 He removes the royal robe of kings.
They are led away with ropes around their waist.
Psalm 53:1
[ For the director of music. According to mahalath. A maskil of David. ] The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, and their ways are vile; there is no one who does good.
Psalm 74:22
Rise up, O God, and defend your cause; remember how fools mock you all day long
Habakkuk - those "clear presentments" were nothing more than poorly contrived (and in large part plagiarized by the way) nonsense with no legal meaning or validity.
Kurt's "education" in these matters came from numerous sham promoters who he selectivly copied from and tried to fine-tune around their previous failures.
And it wasn't Christ that led him to piece together a goofy patchwork of newspeak from other scam promoters.
The numerous fingerprints of other failed schemes show up not only in the presentments, but in the meaingless gibberish they repeatedly filed with the court.
I say again, AMEN!
But, ND, if you hope to dissuade the true believers like Moogles and Habntaclue, I fear you, also, are doomed to a life of frustration and dissapointment. Individuals like these two (and apparently many, many more) are the lawful prey of scamsters like Kurt.
"There are none so blind as those who WILL not see".
jdjd, I have no illusions that either Moogles and Habntaclue will ever see the light, either literally or figuratively. On the other had some of the less brain dead may eventually get it. Actually whether either of them ever come in out of the rain is not my concern, and I assure I shed no tears in their direction or worry particularly one way or the other, they have cast their lot, and will eventually have to pay the price, but they can’t say that they weren’t told, repeatedly that they were about to chop their own hands off.
Besides, watching Moogey hyperventilate when his latest revealed truth isn't received with resounding acclamation is always entertaining.
Judge Bean said: "Just think if only five thousand people had actually jumped on the bandwagon in the first few months...."
___________________________________
This statement comes from the critic that CAN'T visualize or ever admit or conceive more than 600-800 clients ever joined the process FROM DAY 1? LOL
Course this statement comes from Judge Beanhead who believes that 5,000 clients could refinance in every case, before the government could put a stop to things, makes the Judge the stupid one since he can't admit his own dishonesty based upon what he truly believes, and based upon a realistic reality, yet uses a completely different unrealistic scenario, only to try & show some form of intent by Kurt.
Yea, Judge Beanhead, show intent based upon an unrealistic reality and base it upon something that goes against what you believe. Then tell people that Kurt is smart, yet still got caught. Yea, that will make people believe that you are telling the truth & a good Judge of intent.
If you don't believe something, why should someone else or why should you try & convince someone otherwise? You're an absolute jerk & a hypocrite.
Notarial Dissent said: "I agree with his figures"
____________________________
So you believe that Dorean took advantage of people in foreclosure and also knowing people in foreclosure generally have really bad credit, and are unable to refinance in most cases, and yet you also believe that the figure of $100,000 could be financed, and is realistic when the average home was probably around $120,000 in the process? That's about an 83% loan to value. So you believe that people with bad credit can get an 83% loan to value loan?
No, I don't give credence to any of Judge Beanhead's figures based upon what be believes & if you do too, than you are just as stupid as Judge Beanhead living in an unreal world.
I think you agree with him simply because he is a naysayer of the process just like you.
Notarial dissent said: "to let yourself get conned out of your proceeds just plains speaks of general ineptness."
________________________________
Where's your proof of this? Maybe the dorean Group wanted another individual in control? After all the administrative judgments were assigned too to the same person you call a con person.
mogel007 said...
So you believe that people with bad credit can get an 83% loan to value loan?
___________________________________
We give 97% loans to people with bad credit everyday. It's called FHA, in case you haven't heard of it.
And if they use a DPA program like Nehemiah (who HUD tried unsuccesfully to shut down recently), they can end up borrowing 100%.
A lot of people who end up in foreclosure are there for a very good reason.
Don't believe answered: "Gee, hum, wonder why no reporters even bothered to show up????
Maybe because they knew it was a crock????
_______________________________
How about the one reporter who was confronted by Kurt & Kurt stated: "I undertand that you think I am a fraud artist!"
Do you remember what the reporter said as he backpeddled. He denied ever stating or believing Kurt was a scam artist, even though he had the statement printed.
So your conclusion is nonsense based upon what happened in the past. The truth is the reporter printed one thing & stated in person something totally different. LOL
If anything the reporters are the flaky & dishonest ones, if they deny openly what they print. If anything, a better argument could be presented that the reporter in question, doesn't really know what he truly believes, or the reporter is just a plain liar or crock himself.
Maybe a better question is: How come the bank fraud charges were dropped BEFORE THE TRIAL?
Maybe because there was no bank fraud by the dorean process in the first place. If there is no bank fraud, there is no conspiracy TO COMMIT mail or wire fraud since the clients can't be the victim according to the statutues or even according to the original intent when the statute was passed as law.
Remember, the Dorean group in the very beginning said that the "stupidest thing that the government could do is to bring bank fraud charges against them." In that scenario, where there is no suspected bank fraud, there is also no mail fraud scam or conspiracy and the grand jury would have never indicted in the first place and the press would have had nothing to complain about in the beginning.
If you believe the government, then answer this question: How can the clients be part of the conspiracy by mere participation and at the same time also be the victim of the conspiracy?
Don't want to risk involving the Dept of HUD? There are also plenty of conventional subprime programs out there loaning 95% or 100% to people with shabby credit.
mogel007 said...
No, I don't give credence to any of Judge Beanhead's figures based upon what be believes & if you do too, than you are just as stupid as Judge Beanhead living in an unreal world.
___________________________________
As to the ability of the uncreditworthy to obtain mortgage financing, it happens in my real world everyday.
mogel007 said...
Maybe a better question is: How come the bank fraud charges were dropped BEFORE THE TRIAL?
Maybe because there was no bank fraud by the dorean process in the first place. If there is no bank fraud, there is no conspiracy TO COMMIT mail or wire fraud since the clients can't be the victim according to the statutues or even according to the original intent when the statute was passed as law.
___________________________________
Man, what the heck is that awful smell? Oh, never mind... it's just moogie's dead horse.
Judge Bean said: "the simple answer to your question is the publicity part of the plan. Most scams will try to paint a picture of legitimacy, sometimes even with sloppily contrived leaks about alleged "investigations." And they may even fool a few less-than-knowledgable media types in order to have something to point to for promotional purposes.
WHO WERE THE MEDIA TYPES THAT WERE FOOLED & HOW DOES THIS STATEMENT APPLY TO THE DOREAN GROUP'S BUSINESS?
But the Dorean Group scam wasn't a big enough deal to rise above the noise floor of pressing criminal issues that more dramatically affect thousands of lives and involve many more millions of dollars.
SO IF DOREAN WASN'T A BIG DEAL, WHY ARE THEY FACING LIFE FOR SOMETHING THAT ISN'T A BIG DEAL? AND IF THE DOREAN PROCESS DIDN'T AFFECT THOUSANDS OF LIVES, WHY DID YOU USE THE EXAMPLE OF 5,000 CLIENTS?
Outside of some legal expenses for the businesses involved, in the long run the only major financial losers were the clients who fell for it and the rest of us as taxpayers who are going to be paying for Kurt and Scott's incarceration for years to come.
PROBLEM IS THE GRACE COMMISSION PANEL HIRED BY RONALD REAGAN CONCLUDED THAT EVERY FEDERAL INCOME TAX DOLLAR GOES TO PAY ONLY INTEREST ON THE FEDERAL DEBT. SO HOW CAN TAXPAYERS PAY FOR THE COST TO HOUSE FEDERAL INMATES, YOU LOST ME THERE. THE ONLY LOSERS WERE THE CLIENTS? SO YOU ADMIT THAT THE BANKS/LENDERS LOST NOTHING? LOL
And the "lenders" didn't have to show up. The conspiracy to defraud was more than enough to put Kurt and Scott away.
YOUR CONCLUSION HAS NO MERIT. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE IN THE COURT RECORD OF CONSPIRACY TO DEFRAUD. A SERVICE WAS PROVIDED, A CHALLENGE TO THE LENDERS WAS PERFORMED FOR THE CLIENTS AND AN HONEST ATTEMPT WAS MADE TO PERFORM THESE SERVICES. WHAT ASPECT OF THAT CHALLENGE HAD MISREPRESENTATIONS?
If you and your little gang follow some guys into a parking lot, pull out a toy handgun and demand they hand over their wallets you've committed a crime whether or not they hand it over.
And if the authorities were watching and caught you in the act, they don't even need the victim to testify, especially when members of your gang were willing to cooperate.
IN THIS ANALOGY, THE CLIENT IS NOT THE VICTIM THEN, WHICH MEANS THERE COULD NOT BE ANY DOREAN CONVICTIONS WITH NO VICTIM, & NO TESTIMONY.
Scott said: "And if they use a DPA program like Nehemiah (who HUD tried unsuccesfully to shut down recently), they can end up borrowing 100%."
____________________________
Correct me if I'm mistaken, but only a small percentage can qualify for the Nehemiah program. Isn't that program for 1st time homeowners & low income people since in essence the down payment monies are a grant and don't have to be reapid? And how many dorean clients would even know about this program anyway and would have used it? That only takes into consideration the down payment of maybe 5%. Where is the other 95% going to come from? Oh that's right, it will come from a lender who hires a false appraiser that inflates the true value of the house maybe?
Notarial dissent said: The charges were not that they defrauded the banks, but that that was what they were conspiring to do, and they were charged with mail fraud, which is using the mails to file fraudulent documents.
HOW DO YOU KNOW THE DOREAN GROUP USED THE MAILS? DID ANY POSTMASTER TESTIFY TO THIS? MAYBE FEDERAL EXPRESS WAS USED, AND MAYBE MANY OF THE CLIENTS FILED THOSE ALLEGED FALSE DOCUMENTS THEMSELVES? AND MAYBE THOSE DOCUMENTS WERE HAND DELIVERED? IF THE CLIENT FILED THOSE ALLEGED FRAUDULENT DOCUMENTS, HOW CAN THE CLIENT BE THE VICTIM? ACCORDING TO JUDGE BEAN, THEY WERE THE ONLY ONE'S HURT. SO YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN THE EXPRESSION: NO HARM, NO FOUL.
The crimes they were charged with do not require anyone to testify, except for the presentation of the fraudulent items. Plain, simple, and irrefutable. When dim bulbs signed and filed those papers, they committed fraud,
WAS THERE A HANDWRITING EXPERT THAT TESTIFIED THAT THE DOREAN GROUP SIGNED THOSE DOCUMENTS?
and when he used the mails to do it he dragged the Feds in to it, and all they have to prove is that fraudulent documents were sent through the mails
HOW CAN THEY BE FRAUDULENT DOCUMENTS WHEN BOTH THE CLIENT & DOREAN TRUSTEES SINCERELY BELIEVED THEY HAD LEGAL JUSTIFICATIONS TO FILE THEM? IN THE WORST CASE SCENARIO, THIS IS ONLY A MISTAKE & CERTAINLY NO CRIME. IF A COUNTY RECORDER FILES A FALSE DOCUMENT BY MISTAKE, OR USES THE MAIL TOO ARE THEY CHARGED WITH A CONSPIRATORY CRIME TOO?
mogel007 said...
Where is the other 95% going to come from? Oh that's right, it will come from a lender who hires a false appraiser that inflates the true value of the house maybe?
___________________________________
So you actually believe that lenders benefit from inflated appraisals? You know, it suddenly occurs to be that people outside the mortgage industry apparently don't grasp the dichotomy of the origination and underwriting processes.
Notarial dissent said: "The only problem is that some of them got turned over to the FBI and the Comptroller and the scam got gaffed."
_________________________________
What about the Dorean Group periodically sending paperwork & their business over to the FBI purposely since the FBI made it their business to know and the FBI kept sending the paperwork back to the Dorean Group, as if they weren't interested? So are you suggesting that the Comptroller of the Currency send out a letter to indict to the proper authorities & that started things, & it wasn't Judge Alsup that started things rolling? Where's the evidence of such? Or is this just more of your hot air speaking? Have you forgotten about the FBI raid that took ALL PAPERWORK & confiscated computers? That happened long before any indictments.
mogel007 said...
Correct me if I'm mistaken, but only a small percentage can qualify for the Nehemiah program. Isn't that program for 1st time homeowners & low income people since in essence the down payment monies are a grant and don't have to be reapid?
___________________________________
Good point Moogs, about 1st time homebuyers. Nehemiah doesn't specifically apply to Dorean clients. But I was just trying to make the point that poor credit doesn't prevent people from getting high LTV loans.
jUDGE BEAN MEANS TO SAY: If you and your little gang (DOREAN CLIENTS) follow some guys (KURT & SCOTT) into a parking lot, (CONTRACTUAL AGREEMENT), pull out a toy handgun and demand they hand over their wallets (DOREAN PRESENTMENT TO THE BANKS) you've committed a crime whether or not they hand it over. (WHETHER OR NOT THE BANKS VOLUNTARILY DISCHARGE THE MORTGAGE OR NOT). (INFERRING ALL PARTICIPANTS & PRINCIPALS OF THE PROCESS ARE CRIMINALS). And if the authorities were watching and caught you in the act, (THEY MUST NOT HAVE SINCE ALL CLIENTS WEREN'T CHARGED), they don't even need the victim to testify,(YET CLIENTS DID TESTIFY), especially when members of your gang were willing to cooperate.(INFERRING DOREAN CLIENTS WERE THE PERPETRATOR & CRIMINAL IN THIS SCENARIO TOO.
IN THIS CASE THE CLIENT COMES TO THE COURT WITH UNCLEAN HANDS EVEN THOUGH ACCORDING TO THE COURT, THEY ARE THE VICTIM. IF THE CLIENT IS THE CRIMINAL HERE, HOW IS HE ALSO THE VICTIM OF MAIL FRAUD?
JUDGE, THIS ANANOLOGY IS VERY CONFUSING. IF IT IS A GOOD ANALOGY TO THE DOREAN SITUATION, THEN YOU ARE A JOKE. IF THIS ANALOGY DOESN'T APPLY, THAN YOU ARE JUST A BUNCH OF WASTED WORDS & HOT AIR, AND YOU JUST KEEP PROVING THAT THE DOREAN GROUP NEEDS TO GO FREE.
Notarial Dissent said: "There is no great conspiracy or anything else, it is a crock."
And also, as I speak, "COUNTRYWIDE is NOT BEING INVESTIGATED FOR MASSIVE ACCOUNTING FRAUD EITHER BECAUSE MAJOR LENDERS JUST DON'T DO BUSINESS THAT WAY." LOL
Notarial dissent said: "If there is a problem with a mortgage, the ONLY venue to challenge it is in court."
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Tell that to the Senate that will undoubtedly hold hearings against Countrywide & other lenders.
Scott said: "As to the ability of the uncreditworthy to obtain mortgage financing, it happens in my real world everyday."
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Sure if the lender wants to break the law & commit predatory lending practices.
Scott said: "There are also plenty of conventional subprime programs out there loaning 95% or 100% to people with shabby credit."
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Borrowers have to have the income to support the loan too & the collateral must fit the parameters of the loan too.
Judge Bean used in his example over 8 times the amount of clients he believed were ever in the process & other unrealistic assumptions that sound like, "well if frogs had wings, they wouldn't sit on their butts."
One of the first criticisms of the dorean process was that the Dorean Group was taking advantage of clients in foreclosure who really couldn't afford this, by extracting a fee to give them hope by the process that was implemented. Most often people in foreclosure or who lost their home, don't have the income to pass underwriting requirements as you say. Judge Bean obviously believed that discharges of mortgages showing Scott's name on them, would fly by the underwriting department 5,000 times in a row undetected as something not even remotely suspicious or something that may be challenged. These are just a few reasons to show how unrealistic Judge Bean is in his assumptions to show Kurt's intent.
Notarial dissent said: "they have cast their lot, and will eventually have to pay the price, but they can’t say that they weren’t told,...."
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More attempted prophecy from you about more impending convictions for more dorean people?
You keep saying that, & I keep asking for proof from you, that the government is doing anything, but you are still silent.
It's funny how you only attempt to prophesy when you have nothing in hand and nothing concrete.
Yeah, that will be my defense, "I wasn't told". LOL
Moogie’s nostrils are flaring again and he can’t keep his lies straight anymore
This statement comes from the critic that CAN'T visualize or ever admit or conceive more than 600-800 clients ever joined the process FROM DAY 1?
What’s the matter Moogs, don’t recognize sarcasm when you run in to it?
JRB was stating a best case scenario for dim and dimmer, and what might have happened if sloppiness, laziness, ego, and just plain good old fashioned stupidity hadn’t also been a part of the equation. But since you don’t recognize reality when it comes up and slaps you in the face why should you recognize something subtle like sarcasm?
really flaring now
So you believe that Dorean took advantage of people in foreclosure and also knowing people in foreclosure generally have really bad credit, and are unable to refinance in most cases, and yet you also believe that the figure of $100,000 could be financed, and is realistic when the average home was probably around $120,000 in the process?
No, Moogems, I believe that dim and dimmer took advantage of everyone they could, since we know that some of them were in foreclosure when they started, and the ones that weren’t were by the end of it, or were nearly there. That is what I call taking advantage. I don’t think it mattered one wit whether the clients could have floated a loan to buy toothpaste, I think that dim and dimmer would have tried to separate them from as much money as they could and then leave them to drown, as they in fact did. Since there was no way any of the Dorean nonsense could have helped and or stopped anything it really didn’t matter what state they were in as long as they forked over the $3k to dim and dimmer.
The short answer to your question is the same as the long answer, I think they took advantage, cheated, defrauded, lied, and generally swindled everyone they came in contact with. That simple and plain enough for you?
Just as a point of reference Moogs, who is in jail right now facing a life sentence for fraud, and who is spending his time defending two convicted con artists by claiming that what they were doing was legal when the real world has repeatedly told him and them that they were not only wrong but criminal, and who is quite happily sitting at home making a monkey of you on a regular basis? I think you need to seriously refine your definitions, if not your values Moogems.
even Moogie can’t really believe this one
Where's your proof of this? Maybe the dorean Group wanted another individual in control? After all the administrative judgments were assigned too to the same person you call a con person.
Let’s see, who is in jail, and who is off in a country with no extradition treaty and no real bank or anything else with all poor Kurt’s ill gotten gains? Since Kurt will never see the outside of his prison in this life, and since there is no way to enforce any claim he might have to the stolen money, you do the math. Besides, if Dougy was legit, he would have returned the money to the US after the Dorean boys got busted, and you can bet he won’t do that, anymore than he will step foot in any country that has an extradition treaty with Australia were he is wanted for securities fraud. Like I said Moogs, short of there being honor among thieves, that money has long since gone into Dougy’s slush fund if he hasn’t already spent it.
Moogie trying a new tack
How about the one reporter who was confronted by Kurt & Kurt stated: "I undertand that you think I am a fraud artist!"
Sorry, no Moogs, the only reporting I came across were the articles in the Bee, and they were less than flattering, and as I recall they called a fraud a fraud. I doubt seriously if it was of much interest to any of the news crowd until after the hammer came down, and to put not too fine a point on it, they just weren’t much in the way of news, they are small chump change in the world of Enron.
Moogie beating that dead horse again
Maybe a better question is: How come the bank fraud charges were dropped BEFORE THE TRIAL?
I have no idea, and we will probably never know unless one of the former prosecutors decides to write a short article about their most boring cases. My suspicion is that the mail fraud was easier to prove, and carried a longer sentence. More bang for the buck as it were. In any event Moogs, the dropping of the charges does not equate to innocence in anyone’s mind but yours. The charges brought were using the mails to file fraudulent documents, and that was what was shown and proven, and that is all that is required. Rave on Moogs, between your and the dim bulbs grasp of legal precepts I will take what I know of the law and what the courts have said over anything you have to say.
here Moogie makes a great deal of pointless noise
HOW DO YOU KNOW THE DOREAN GROUP USED THE MAILS?
Oh give it up Moogs, first you claim that the dim bulbs sending out their presentments was proof of their sincerity and now you are claiming they didn’t. Which is it. Either they sent out the presentments as you said or they didn’t. In any case, they sent the stuff through the mails, they came in envelopes with postage markers on them which qualifies as being mailed, and most places when they get stuff like that they staple the envelope to the back of the pile, and that is all that is required for proof of mailing. That one won’t even come close to flying.
Moogie clueless
HOW CAN THEY BE FRAUDULENT DOCUMENTS WHEN BOTH THE CLIENT & DOREAN TRUSTEES SINCERELY BELIEVED THEY HAD LEGAL JUSTIFICATIONS TO FILE THEM?
For the same reason that you will still go to prison for killing someone even though you really sincerely utterly and absolutely believe that it is your right to do so. You remember that old canard about ignorance of the law being no excuse, well it applies here. The only place you can get away with claiming you are too stupid to walk and chew gum at the same time is in tax court, and then only in a limited fashion. So no cookie here either.
Moogie blathers
What about the Dorean Group periodically sending paperwork & their business over to the FBI purposely since the FBI made it their business to know and the FBI kept sending the paperwork back to the Dorean Group, as if they weren't interested?
Sure they did Moogs. By then it was a little further along than that.
Moogie prevaricates
So are you suggesting that the Comptroller of the Currency send out a letter to indict to the proper authorities & that started things, & it wasn't Judge Alsup that started things rolling?
Nope, again, you are trying to twist things to your own purpose. I said that copies of the documents were sent to the comptroller’s office and that is all I said. The comptroller did send out a circular warning about that particular nonsense, which is what probably alerted a good many of the banks. The indictment came from the Federal Prosecutor’s office, probably encouraged by Alsup’s letter, but who knows, where it came from is irrelevant to the fact that they got an indictment on the charges they filed.
Moogie pontificates
"COUNTRYWIDE is NOT BEING INVESTIGATED FOR MASSIVE ACCOUNTING FRAUD EITHER BECAUSE MAJOR LENDERS JUST DON'T DO BUSINESS THAT WAY."
Countrywide is being investigated for internal fraud, violation of a number of regulatory laws, and for making loans that it shouldn’t have, which constitutes fraud as well. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the validity of individual loans or the lending process in general, but abuses that can happen on the other end of it.
Moogey as usual misses the point
Tell that to the Senate that will undoubtedly hold hearings against Countrywide & other lenders.
The hearings are to determine Countrywide and other lenders were doing that put them in the condition they are in now. The fact that it was gross mismanagement and making subprime loans that should never have been made will come as a great shock to all concerned and much noise will be made and little will be done except for a tightening of the general regulations. It still has nothing to do with the validity of loans in general.
Moogie blathers some more
Judge Bean obviously believed that discharges of mortgages showing Scott's name on them, would fly by the underwriting department 5,000 times in a row undetected as something not even remotely suspicious or something that may be challenged.
Again, you still fail to comprehend sarcasm.
mogel007 said.
Sure if the lender wants to break the law & commit predatory lending practices.
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Your definition of predatory lending must be pretty broad there, Moogs! Besides, I thought mortgage lenders were breaking the law EVERY time we made a "loan". Are you saying that mortgage lending is legal as long as it doesn't meet predatory lending criteria?
Notarial Dissent said: "Oh give it up Moogs, first you claim that the dim bulbs sending out their presentments was proof of their sincerity and now you are claiming they didn’t."
"The charges brought were using the mails to file fraudulent documents,"
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The presentment package mailed to the lender didn't involve filing any documents and I don't agree that sending out a challenge or dispute letter to a lender to give them a chance to clear things up is tantamount to mail fraud and I don't believe the court specifically said that either.
You keep changing your story as you go.
Notarial Dissent said: "Countrywide is being investigated for internal fraud, violation of a number of regulatory laws, and for making loans that it shouldn’t have, which constitutes fraud as well."
Pertaining to the fraud Countrywide did, Notarial Dissent said: "little will be done except for a tightening of the general regulations."
Wow, it's nice to know that you agree and finally admit that there is a huge double standard that exists.
Notarial Dissent said: "But the Dorean Group scam wasn't a big enough deal to rise above the noise floor of pressing criminal issues that more dramatically affect thousands of lives and involve many more millions of dollars."
Yet Countrywide's actions DID INVOLVE MILLIONS OF DOLLARS and did affect thousands of lives in your own words, yet "little will be done."
How sad!!!!!
Notarial Dissent said: "Again, you still fail to comprehend sarcasm."
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You're right, I don't understand the sarcasm in Judge Beanhead's words or his scenarios he presented. Please explain the sarcasm to me.
I don't think the Judge was being sarcastic when he stated that the Dorean Group were only in this for the money & for the huge refinances and many refinances of clients properties.
Course than again, wouldn't it have been much simpler if the trustees just made one blanket mortgage & used all the clients properties as collateral for 1 big loan. I would think a big bank would court a situation like that. How long would that take? Timing seemed to be the problem why the Dorean Group didn't make big money according to Judge Bean. Even a moron could have figured that out if the Dorean Group were only in it for the money. The trustees had the power and authority to accomplish that. Would have been illegal, but wouldn't have been questioned by any lender if money was their only motive. I guess Judge Bean didn't think of that when he presented his sarcastic scenario, you think? Or maybe Judge Bean really isn't as smart or fair as he thinks he is? Which is it?
Moogie tries
The presentment package mailed to the lender didn't involve filing any documents and I don't agree that sending out a challenge or dispute letter to a lender to give them a chance to clear things up is tantamount to mail fraud and I don't believe the court specifically said that either.
You keep changing your story as you go.
The presentment was a false document, and contained another false document, the so called bond, but the one that got them nailed was the release they sent to the various recorders. All part and parcel, and still part of what they said they were going to do, so goes to conspiracy as well.
Moogie fails
Wow, it's nice to know that you agree and finally admit that there is a huge double standard that exists.
Not in the least. We are talking about two entirely different areas here. You have yet to prove that there was ANY fraud whatsoever involved in any of the loans dim and dimmer attempted to void.
Moogie has a point
How sad!!!!!
Regrettably and unfortunately true. I make no apologies for what Countrywide or any of the others did as far as the regulatory rules they broke. They should be prosecuted, but it is doubtful much will come of it.
and then he loses it
You're right, I don't understand the sarcasm in Judge Beanhead's words or his scenarios he presented. Please explain the sarcasm to me.
The sarcasm was in what might have happened in and ideal if brain dead world and if 1) dim and dimmer hadn’t been so totally inept, 2) there had been enough truly stupid and desperate people to fall for their con, 3) the lending operations had been totally out of control and not paying any attention, 4) the comptroller and the servicing agencies hadn’t sent out a circular outlining the scam, and 5) there was pork in the treetops. In other words, it wasn’t any more likely to fly than any of its many predecessors, and your wishful thinking won’t make it otherwise.
You are right in that the Judge’s comments about the Dorean dimbos being in it for the money, they just weren’t very good about it.
Then you wander off in one of your dithers trying to turn a turnip into an orange, when you should be discussing apples.
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