Friday, November 10, 2006

Class in Session: Lesson 8 (10/13/06)

Origin or creation has inherent in it title. This is clear in copyright, trademark and manufacturing. In article 2 title is passed by a sale. Now the promissory note is a good that the maker has title in by creator rights. If article 2 conflicts with other law the other law prevails including other articles. So we now know Article 2 is not that potent in the full scheme of things. The next thing to consider is whether it is applicable at all. If the note is a security than it is clear Article 8 take subject matter jurisdiction and the title movement will be regulated by those terms. We can clearly tell this note is not a certificated security like a stock certificate or bond. It stands on its own and is not represented by a certificate. As an uncertificated security created by the maker vested with title the transaction begins. Possession changes hands most certainly but does title go with possession? I will answer that soon enough but first let’s ponder a few scenarios. If title does pass in a good faith method Dorean is a fraud. If it does not what is happening in the possession change? If one has possession without title it must be on loan or as an agent. Is the lender a borrower? Is the lender an agent on behalf of the maker and if so on what basis? The lender takes the note and securitizes it. As the maker’s agent or title holder? Duties and responsibilities are worlds apart here. Someone said “is it wrong for the lender to borrow money?” Of course not. So they borrow money against the note. If they have title this is their business. If they have agency this is the maker’s business. Are they going into the securitization market with the maker’s as principal best interest at hand? If not there may be fraud or breach occurring. Let’s hope article 8 makes it clear how title passed in the financial asset-uncertificated security-note. Then another look at the transaction’s handling of this note will simply be lawful or not. I’m certain honesty-in-fact and fair dealing has set the standard for full disclosure so that all parties understand except for 2 poor deluded men in the pokey forever.

52 comments:

mogel said...

Has the government/courts/FBI violated the Dorean Group's consitutional rights? If these entities have violated constitutional rights, their actions become void by law. This is why the trial will never take place.

The "Bill of Rights" are the first 10 amendments to the Federal Constitution. Read them until you have made them a part of your being.

Bill of Rights
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
________________________________
Judge Alsup's court shut the Dorean Group down which took away their right to challenge the banks, & the right to redress grievances which is all part of freedom of speech. A freedom of the press is the freedom to have your own website and voice your own beliefs. The Court in effect shut down the websites too through their threats. The right to peaceable assembly was denied when the FBI raided the Dorean office, confiscated records, & illegally took part in the constructive eviction of the Dorean Group through improper dealings with the Landlord. The right to petition the government has been interfered with by the B.O.P. (Bureau of Prisons).

Amendment II
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.
_________________________________
The pen is mightier than the sword. Dorean's best weapon is the pen. Kurt's communication (his pen) has been interfered with by the B.O.P. by interfering with his mail. Not only that, his right to personal unmonitored telephone conversations with relatives and friends & right to counsel & obtain advice and better his defense, has been hampered and impeded by the actions of the B.O.P. Since he has been illegally been put in jail, he is not under the jurisdiction of the B.O.P., so they don't have the right to monitor his conversations or infringe on his conversations or to punish him.

Amendment III
No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.
________________________________
The Dorean Group are soldiers of truth. Their written challenges to the banks were done in peace, however, these peaceful challenges without the Dorean's consent has taken away their personal freedom without their consent and have in essence quartered them into a prison for 18 months now & originally have illegally arrested them based upon false charges, not prescribed by law, such as being a "fugitive from justice" and "insurance fraud" which charges were totally unfounded, much less ever proven.

Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
_________________________________
The FBI who work for the courts interests, have confiscated funds and papers and personal property of the Dorean Group illegally & not based upon probably cause, & have done unreasonable searches and seizures

Amendment V
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
_________________________
The Dorean Group is being held on infamous crimes that threaten them with 30 years to life when no proof of crimes given. Seems to me that they are being tried twice on the same alleged crimes since the State of Utah filed charges and dropped them by their actions or conduct. Maybe "double jeopardy" applies here. The Dorean Group have been deprived of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness & property. Their property is the contractual agreements they have with all clients that have been screwed with since day one by the government & banks, courts, and press by their slander & lies. Where is the just financial compensation to the Dorean Group for the government's damages to them?

Amendment VI
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.
_______________________________
There are no real & credible witnesses that have confronted the Dorean Group & witnessed against them. The nature of their alleged fraudulent offenses is unknown & has not been defined or sworn to on record & can't be sworn too because their is no bank fraud, because there can't be any harm to the banks, hence no foul-- no fraud, since the lenders never risked any of their own assets. The Dorean Group's right to a speedy trial has already been violated.

Amendment VII
In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.

Amendment VIII
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
______________________________
Excessive fines have been imposed against the Dorean Group. It started with Alsup's decree that the Dorean Group would have to pay the attorney fees in the civil cases & the fees and sanctions imposed against their attorney, Spielbauer. Cruel & unusual punishments have been inflicted by shutting their business down by a restraining order to cease & desist their business. Excessive bail has been imposed by decreeing no bail whatsoever is possible.

Amendment IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
____________________________
The Dorean Group's rights as trustees for their clients has been impeded with & damaged not only the Dorean Group but has also damaged all of their clients. The governments actions have stopped the sale of these administrative judgments obtained which may be the only redress available for clients if a voluntary financial settlement can't be made by the government.

Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.
_______________________________
The Court has damaged the constitutional rights of the Dorean Group of which there are no set limits on damages.

Here is a good website that talks about constitutional challenges to a court:

www.citizensoftheconstitution.org/challenges.htm

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justice77777777 said...

mogel said...
As for the trial being postponed because Julian is now found, Julian can't tell the prosecution anymore than what they already know-- which is that the prosecution KNOWS THEY ARE IN TROUBLE THEMSELVES.

Ms. Magoon was monitored and watched and questioned by the FBI from the very beginning representing herself to me that she was the first Dorean client and really personal & close friends to Kurt & represented to me she considered herself to be a highly intelligent person. That night, she called me out of the clear blue & she told me that she thought her phone was illegally tapped & monitored & seemed to have plenty of questions for me. She only knew me by things she had heard about me, all from second hand sources. Mind you I had never talked to her on the phone before or even had an email or internet conversation with her. When I questioned her exactly what was the extent of the FBI investigation was comprised of, she told me she couldn't go into that with me, & clammed up, but seemingly wanted to get information from me, so it appeared that way to me. That was months before she decided to seemingly flee. She can't tell them anything either of anything significant as when she called me she told me nothing of significance. The prosecution is grasping for straws as usual.


Mogel, you are such a clueless fool. Julian AND Magoon are CO-defendants and will go on trial with the other defendants. Now that they are being brought to justice in the US they have to accomdate them by law, which is something you obviously know nothing about.

Tony Tuba said...

Please can I have some of what this man is drinking. I found this a while ago.



R.I.P. Swami

1974 - 2006

Eaten by Rosie O'Donnell on November 9, 2006.



The swami. Coming to a sewer plant near you.



http://www.nobodyswatching.tv/board/viewtopic.php?t=369&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

tcob247 said...

Mogel

About your long post

Good luck with that

tcod247 said...

Amazing that as soon as Mogel posts a rational and intelligent post that really makes one stop and think, there are 4 irrelevant detractors. (must be on a payroll somewhere) The naysayers never want to deal with the fact that the govt has broken just about every law there is in putting and keeping these two guys in jail. Just like the banks will NEVER, EVER answer that pesky little list of questions. Why? Because acquiescence by silence doesn’t apply to the banks, only to us when the banks send us those changes to our cardholder account agreements. Strange, I thought the law was a two-way street?

Mogel you did a very good job of going thru the "Bill of Rights" or what used to be the "Bill of Rights" and showing how our corrupt judiciary, MIBs and govt have taken their jackboots and stomped all over most of the 10. I wonder if they set out to trample on each one or if it just came naturally? Anyhow, according to your analysis they missed one or two so maybe they're stuck and can't figure out how to desecrate those remaining ones. Once they stomp on those then it’s settlement time. Shouldn’t be too long now….

neodemes said...

moogie, you should do stand up.

You're a freakin' riot.

princess said...

Mogel,
You must be completly stupid or simply naive. You think you know exactly what is going on huh?? You have NO CLUE! I can only hope that the federal goverment has enough sense to indict your ignorant ass on the same charges as the other four Dorean brokers. I bet that would shut you up for a while. The outcome will nowhere near what you are predicting. Ahhh... But lets just sit back and wait. You wont hear much from me. I will be back in the end to tell you "I told you so" .

mogel said...

Injustice 666 said: "Now that they are being brought to justice in the US they have to accomdate them by law,"
_______________________________
What the heck are you talking about? I know you can't spell, but what do you mean by that statement?

Does that requirement include the absolute necessity of postponing or continuing already existing court dates? Judges don't have to grant continuances if they don't want to or if Defendants or even attorneys have violated Court time frames already set up. By simply not showing up for Court by ignoring dates or simply fleeing or not showing up, doesn't necessitate that you have a right to have a court date at a later time. If you don't show up for court, you are in default by your own negligence. You're the clueless one! You're the one that said that since Julian isn't in the States yet, that the whole court time table has been changed since you assume that he has some great story to tell that will shock the very foundation of the Dorean process. If you mean something different, explain it, just don't resort to name calling. That just shows how childish you are. If you are going to make an accusation, at least have the courtesy to prove it or back it up with at least something of intelligence.

mogel said...

Princess Leah said: " You think you know exactly what is going on huh?? You have NO CLUE!"
___________________________
That's just it. I don't know exactly what is going on. But having a few clues, it's enough to make me sick. If I knew everything that was going on, I'm sure I'd throw up & if you were close to me, my puke would get all over you.

Tony Tuba said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Tony Tuba said...

tcod247 said...
Amazing that as soon as Mogel posts a rational and intelligent post that really makes one stop and think, there are 4 irrelevant detractors. (must be on a payroll somewhere) The naysayers never want to deal with the fact that the govt has broken just about every law there is in putting and keeping these two guys in jail.



Whomever tcod is, you are wrong. I am not a nay sayer. I agree with Mogel. Great job Mogel. It must have taken a while to put your post together. If the nay sayers can't figure out whats really happening, then they are surely lost and don't want to see the obvious.

mogel said...

Princess said: I can ONLY HOPE that the federal goverment has ENOUGH SENSE to indict your IGNORANT ass on the same charges as the other four Dorean brokers.
___________________________________
Well let's see.... if the Federal government doesn't have ENOUGH SENSE, why do they or you expect THAT THEY WILL WIN?
Gosh, if you only hope, are you sure that you will have the chance to tell me "I told you so?" "I told you so", well that's an intelligent and original response. Did you come up with that phrase all on your own?

If it is a fact that I am ignorant, doesn't that make me less culpable? Could Nemo be right about one thing? Am I really just a small fish, not worthy of being fried at the barbecue? As Nemo said, "I must have had mixed feelings when I heard about the indictments: hurt because I'm not important enough to be indicted, but yet relieved not to be charged." Now that's something worthy of being in standup comedy.

Indicting all of the Brokers makes about as much sense as indicting all Dorean clients too. Why not indict all ignorant people?

Maybe you're right about one thing though. Keeping silent until the very end, is probably your best defense & smartest strategy. It will definitely minimize your embarassment. Even a fool is respected when they keep their mouth shut.

I always thought princesses were suppose to be elegant, feminine, and attractive. You might consider changing your username to "witch". You might get more respect. At least a username like that is more honest.

I think you & Nemo are the ones that belongs in the comedy corner to do standup. After all, some of the funniest or most successful comedians were acts of two: Laurel & Hardy, Dean Martin & Jerry Lewis, Abbott & Costello, Sonny & Cher. Maybe the two of you can pair up & come up with some catchy phrase. How about "The Witch and I"? It's kind of a pun: The witching eye. You know the all seeing and all knowing pair.

son of a prophet said...

journalist pleads for help....




Journalist Persecuted For Documenting Bush Family



Connections to Nazi Regime
documented in the National Archives and the U.S Congressional Record,America still in denial about treasonous Bush family.


John Buchanan, journalist who broke story in 2003, talks again about how he was targeted and persucuted in a Nazi-like manner for telling the truth about the Bush family.


11 Nov 2006

By Greg Szymanski



The connection between the Bush family and the Nazi regime just so happens to be well-documented in the National Archives and the U.S. Congressional Record.



And this treasonous connection, one that should have been dealt with a long time ago, was finally brought to light in 2003 by investigative reporter, John Buchanan, in an article first appearing in the New Hampshire Gazette.



Finally, after 60 years of treasonous silence by politicians and the media, the truth about how the Bush family came forward and how they were nothing more than two-bit traitors and war profiteers.



But instead of praise, Buchanan was shunned and then discredited by the mainstream media, his story ridiculed and then placed in the black hole of conspiracy propaganda read by extremists on the internet.



Instead of the treasonous information ending the Bush family reign of terror, it demonstrated just how treasonous, diabolical and devious the government ad media had become.



Instead of using this information to once and for corral the Bush family and its murderous past, the Nazi-like stranglehold on America surfaced instead, rearing its ugly head as Daddy Bush called out the attack dogs to once and for all silence Buchanan.



"I found out the hard way how the Bush family tries to silence people trying to tell the truth, especially when you cross the line," said Buchanan Thursday while appearing on Greg Szymanski's radio show, The Investigative Journal. "I was so naļ¶„. I never thought what happened to me could happen in America, especially for a person like me who believes in freedom of speech. But I found out quickly freedom of speech doesn't exist in America when you begin uncovering the truth about the Bush family."



What Buchanan meant by "finding out the hard way" was that the Bush attack dogs, like true Nazis, on two separate occasions hauled him into custody, accusing him of plotting to kill the President, accusations that were of course unfounded but used as a scare tactic.



"I have to admit I was frightened to death because I thought at any time for no reason they could haul me away," said Buchanan, adding that his story led to him running for President of the United States in 2004, leading to more than respectable showing in the New Hampshire primaries.



"When I flew into Washington D.C. to give a speech at the press club after the New Hampshire primaries, turned out to be the first time I was apprehended by agents and held against my will for two hours," recalled Buchanan, adding that after he was released and gave his speech, he decided to take a train home to Florida instead of flying.



"I have to admit I was worried about what was going to happen when I returned home to the state controlled by Jeb, the brother of the President."

And Buchanan's worries quickly turned into a nightmare of serious legal proportions, being arrested on a bogus14-count felony complaint for aggravated stalking against a victim the state failed to produce.



A story appearing on August 14, 2004 had this to say about the Buchanan arrest:



Republican "9/11 Truth Candidate" John Buchanan has been arrested in Florida on extremely suspicious charges. Buchanan, an investigative reporter whose revelations have caused acute embarrassment to the Bush family, is being held in most flagrant violation of US law.



Buchanan now faces an accelerated kangaroo court that, within days, could send him to prison for up to five years for "stalking" an unidentified "victim."



Buchanan's arrest happened in Dade County -- Jeb-Bush country. He has been framed and placed in jail, which will prevent him from attending the GOP convention where he hoped to challenge the nomination of George W. Bush. This way-laying of a legitimate political challenger shows the raw power of the criminal ruling elite that is now in power in Washington.



Buchanan needs to be Issue Number One throughout the convention. Demand his release and the end of suppression of his message.



Members of the web communities www.911sharethetruth.com and www.911truth.org have been in touch over the last few hours with John Buchanan, who ran against George W. Bush in the New Hampshire Republican primary as the "9/11 Truth Candidate." Buchanan was featured at the end of David Ray Griffin's book, The New Pearl Harbor and was interviewed in the film, 9/11: The Greatest Lie Ever Sold.



Has Campaigning Against Bush Now Become 'Stalking'

On February 4, while on his way to speak at an evening meeting of the National Press Club, John was kidnapped by unidentified federal agents who claimed to be Secret Service officers but apparently were not.



Four days later, upon his return home, John was arrested again. This time, on phony criminal charges contained in a 14-count felony complaint for aggravated stalking against a victim the state has failed to produce.



One is left to conclude that the "victim" is one George W. Bush. If so, that means that Buchanan's Constitutionally protected right to politically challenge a fellow Republican has been deemed "stalking."



On June 14, after the "victim" failed a second time to appear for a deposition, the judge informed the Florida state attorney that he would dismiss the charges if the victim failed a third time to appear. The victim failed to appear last Thursday.



Today, however, the judge changed his mind -- and the state attorney refused even to let John plead guilty to a misdemeanor so that he could return to Maine and his 9/11 outreach activities prior to going to the Republican Convention in NY later this month.



The state of Florida now plans to put John on trial next week. He is facing five years in prison. His new public defender has reportedly "lost" his evidence binder, which he prepared to rebut the original allegations with more than a dozen witnesses and other evidence.



Targeted for Exposing Bush Family Ties to Nazi Leaders?

The fact is, John is being persecuted by the Bush regime for his courage in reporting the "Bush-Nazi story" in the New Hampshire Gazette last fall and then taking Bush on earlier this year based on the ugly truth about 9/11. We the people of the 9/11 and anti-war/anti-corporatism movements can not sit by and watch this happen. We must all help John in any way we can -- NOW.



Given his dire situation, John needs a lot of help and moral support. Specifically, he needs some short-term financial support and legal assistance, as well as media exposure to call attention to his persecution by the state.



John has emerged as a courageous member of the 9/11 community and has made a firm commitment to continue on with the fight until the Bush administration has been held accountable. For that reason, he deserves your full and aggressive support.



Two years after the arrest, Buchanan had this to say on his radio interview:



"I remember going to court and the public defender saying he lost my file, I had no defense and I better plead guilty as I was going to jail," recalled Buchanan, adding that he broke down in tears. "I then called a 9/11 activist, Gabriel Day, who quickly helped me retain a lawyer. The lawyer then obtained a continuance and was able to persuade the judge the government had concocted the story, having no victim or evidence. The case was finally dropped but after considerable time and expense.



"Even after that experience, I was harassed by agents one more time, again accusing me of plotting to kill the President but releasing me after they said I was only in their custody for wanting to impeach the President. What a joke, I remember telling them before being released, saying if you hauled in everybody who wanted to impeach the President you would have to build another Guatanamo Bay right here in the states.



"Since then, I have lived in five states in the last year and half, now settling in a rural part of Georgia. I have written a screenplay about war profiteering, my book Fixing America has been selling and I am planning again to run for President.



What happened to me should prove to Americans without question that we are living in a fascist country and that Nazi-like tactics are being used against Americans."



The following story, written by Buchanan in 2003, appeared in the New Hampshire Gazette, a story still ignored by all the treasonous politicians and members of the media, as America still remains captive by the murderous and Nazi-like ways of the treasonous Bush family.



By John Buchanan



Exclusive to The New Hampshire Gazette



WASHINGTON - After 60 years of inattention and even denial by the U.S. media, newly-uncovered government documents in The National Archives and Library of Congress reveal that Prescott Bush, the grandfather of President George W. Bush, served as a business partner of and U.S. banking operative for the financial architect of the Nazi war machine from 1926 until 1942, when Congress took aggressive action against Bush and his "enemy national" partners.



The documents also show that Bush and his colleagues, according to reports from the U.S. Department of the Treasury and FBI, tried to conceal their financial alliance with German industrialist Fritz Thyssen, a steel and coal baron who, beginning in the mid-1920s, personally funded Adolf Hitler's rise to power by the subversion of democratic principle and German law.



Furthermore, the declassified records demonstrate that Bush and his associates, who included E. Roland Harriman, younger brother of American icon W. Averell Harriman, and George Herbert Walker, President Bush's maternal great-grandfather, continued their dealings with the German industrial baron for nearly eight months after the U.S. entered the war.



No Story?



For six decades these historical facts have gone unreported by the mainstream U.S. media. The essential facts have appeared on the Internet and in relatively obscure books, but were dismissed by the media and Bush family as undocumented diatribes. This story has also escaped the attention of "official" Bush biographers, Presidential historians and publishers of U.S. history books covering World War II and its aftermath.



The White House did not respond to phone calls seeking comment.



The Summer of '42



The unraveling of the web of Bush-Harriman-Thyssen U.S. enterprises, all of which operated out of the same suite of offices at 39 Broadway under the supervision of Prescott Bush, began with a story that ran in the New York Herald-Tribune on July 30, 1942. By then, the U.S. had been at war with Germany for nearly eight months.



"Hitler's Angel Has $3 Million in U.S. Bank," declared the headline. The lead paragraph characterized Fritz Thyssen as "Adolf Hitler's original patron a decade ago." In fact, the steel and coal magnate had aggressively supported and funded Hitler since October 1923, according to Thyssen's autobiography, I Paid Hitler. In that book, Thyssen also acknowledges his direct personal relationships with Adolf Hitler, Joseph Goebbels and Rudolf Hess.



The Herald-Tribune also cited unnamed sources who suggested Thyssen's U.S. "nest egg" in fact belonged to "Nazi bigwigs" including Goebbels, Hermann Goering, Heinrich Himmler, or even Hitler himself.



Business is Business



The "bank," founded in 1924 by W. Averell Harriman on behalf of Thyssen and his Bank voor Handel en Scheepvaart N.V. of Holland, was Union Banking Corporation (UBC) of New York City. According to government documents, it was in reality a clearing house for a number of Thyssen-controlled enterprises and assets, including as many as a dozen individual businesses. UBC also bought and shipped overseas gold, steel, coal, and U.S. Treasury and war bonds. The company's activities were administered for Thyssen by a Netherlands-born, naturalized U.S. citizen named Cornelis Lievense, who served as president of UBC. Roland Harriman was chairman and Prescott Bush a managing director.



The Herald-Tribune article did not identify Bush or Harriman as executives of UBC, or Brown Brothers Harriman, in which they were partners, as UBC's private banker. A confidential FBI memo from that period suggested, without naming the Bush and Harriman families, that politically prominent individuals were about to come under official U.S. government scrutiny as Hitler's plunder of Europe continued unabated.



After the "Hitler's Angel" article was published Bush and Harriman made no attempts to divest themselves of the controversial Thyssen financial alliance, nor did they challenge the newspaper report that UBC was, in fact, a de facto Nazi front organization in the U.S.



Instead, the government documents show, Bush and his partners increased their subterfuge to try to conceal the true nature and ownership of their various businesses, particularly after the U.S. entered the war. The documents also disclose that Cornelis Lievense, Thyssen's personal appointee to oversee U.S. matters for his Rotterdam-based Bank voor Handel en Scheepvaart N.V., via UBC for nearly two decades, repeatedly denied to U.S. government investigators any knowledge of the ownership of the Netherlands bank or the role of Thyssen in it.



UBC's original group of business associates included George Herbert Walker, who had a relationship with the Harriman family that began in 1919. In 1922, Walker and W. Averell Harriman traveled to Berlin to set up the German branch of their banking and investment operations, which were largely based on critical war resources such as steel and coal.



The Walker-Harriman-created German industrial alliance also included partnership with another German titan who supported Hitler's rise, Friedrich Flick, who partnered with Thyssen in the German Steel Trust that forged the Nazi war machine. For his role in using slave labor and his own steel, coal and arms resources to build Hitler's war effort, Flick was convicted at the Nuremberg trials and sentenced to seven years in prison.



The Family Business



In 1926, after Prescott Bush had married Walker's daughter, Dorothy, Walker brought Bush in as a vice president of the private banking and investment firm of W.A. Harriman & Co., also located in New York. Bush became a partner in the firm that later became Brown Brothers Harriman and the largest private investment bank in the world. Eventually, Bush became a director of and stockholder in UBC.



However, the government documents note that Bush, Harriman, Lievense and the other UBC stockholders were in fact "nominees," or phantom shareholders, for Thyssen and his Holland bank, meaning that they acted at the direct behest of their German client.



Seized



On October 20, 1942, under authority of the Trading with the Enemy Act, the U.S. Congress seized UBC and liquidated its assets after the war. The seizure is confirmed by Vesting Order No. 248 in the U.S. Office of the Alien Property Custodian and signed by U.S. Alien Property Custodian Leo T. Crowley.



In August, under the same authority, Congress had seized the first of the Bush-Harriman-managed Thyssen entities, Hamburg-American Line, under Vesting Order No. 126, also signed by Crowley. Eight days after the seizure of UBC, Congress invoked the Trading with the Enemy Act again to take control of two more Bush-Harriman-Thyssen businesses - Holland-American Trading Corp. (Vesting Order No. 261) and Seamless Steel Equipment Corp (Vesting Order No. 259). In November, Congress seized the Nazi interests in Silesian-American Corporation, which allegedly profited from slave labor at Auschwitz via a partnership with I.G. Farben, Hitler's third major industrial patron and partner in the infrastructure of the Third Reich.



The documents from the Archives also show that the Bushes and Harrimans shipped valuable U.S. assets, including gold, coal, steel and U.S. Treasury and war bonds, to their foreign clients overseas as Hitler geared up for his 1939 invasion of Poland, the event that sparked World War II.



That's One Way to Put It



Following the Congressional seizures of UBC and the other four Bush-Harriman-Thyssen enterprises, The New York Times reported on December 16, 1944, in a brief story on page 25, that UBC had "received authority to change its principal place of business to 120 Broadway." The Times story did not report that UBC had been seized by the U.S. government or that the new address was the U.S. Office of the Alien Property Custodian. The story also neglected to mention that the other UBC-related businesses had also been seized by Congress.



Still No Story?



Since then, the information has not appeared in any U.S. news coverage of any Bush political campaign, nor has it been included in any of the major Bush family biographies. It was, however, covered extensively in George H.W. Bush: The Unauthorized Biography, by Webster Tarpley and Anton Chaitkin. Chaitkin's father served as an attorney in the 1940s for some of the victims of the Bush-Harriman-Thyssen businesses.



The book gave a detailed, accurate accounting of the Bush family's long Nazi affiliation, but no mainstream U.S. media entity reported on or even investigated the allegations, despite careful documentation by the authors. Major booksellers declined to distribute the book, which was dismissed by Bush supporters as biased and untrue. Its authors struggled even to be reviewed in reputable newspapers. That the book was published by a Lyndon LaRouche's organization undoubtedly made it easier to dismiss, but does not change the facts.



The essence of the story been posted for years on various Internet sites, including BuzzFlash.com and TakeBackTheMedia.com, but no online media seem to have independently confirmed it.



Likewise, the mainstream media have apparently made no attempt since World War II to either verify or disprove the allegations of Nazi collaboration against the Bush family. Instead, they have attempted to dismiss or discredit such Internet sites or "unauthorized" books without any journalistic inquiry or research into their veracity.



Loyal Defenders



The National Review ran an essay on September 1 by their White House correspondent Byron York, entitled "Annals of Bush-Hating." It begins mockingly: "Are you aware of the murderous history of George W. Bush - indeed, of the entire Bush family? Are you aware of the president's Nazi sympathies? His crimes against humanity? And do you know, by the way, that George W. Bush is a certifiable moron?" York goes on to discredit the "Bush is a moron" IQ hoax, but fails to disprove the Nazi connection.



The more liberal Boston Globe ran a column September 29 by Reason magazine's Cathy Young in which she referred to "Bush-o-phobes on the Internet" who "repeat preposterous claims about the Bush family's alleged Nazi connections."



Poles Tackle the Topic



Newsweek Polska, the magazine's Polish edition, published a short piece on the "Bush Nazi past" in its March 5, 2003 edition. The item reported that "the Bush family reaped rewards from the forced-labor prisoners in the Auschwitz concentration camp," according to a copyrighted English-language translation from Scoop Media (www.scoop.co.nz). The story also reported the seizure of the various Bush-Harriman-Thyssen businesses.



Still Not Interested



Major U.S. media outlets, including ABC News, NBC News, The New York Times, Washington Post, Washington Times, Los Angeles Times and Miami Herald, have repeatedly declined to investigate the story when information regarding discovery of the documents was presented to them beginning Friday, August 29. Newsweek U.S. correspondent Michael Isikoff, famous for his reporting of big scoops during the Clinton-Lewinsky sexual affair of the 1990s, declined twice to accept an exclusive story based on the documents from the archives.



Aftermath



After the seizures of the various businesses they oversaw with Cornelis Lievense and his German partners, the U.S. government quietly settled with Bush, Harriman and others after the war. Bush and Harriman each received $1.5 million in cash as compensation for their seized business assets.



In 1952, Prescott Bush was elected to the U.S. Senate, with no press accounts about his well-concealed Nazi past. There is no record of any U.S. press coverage of the Bush-Nazi connection during any political campaigns conducted by George Herbert Walker Bush, Jeb Bush, or George W. Bush, with the exception of a brief mention in an unrelated story in the Sarasota Herald Tribune in November 2000 and a brief but inaccurate account in The Boston Globe in 2001.



John Buchanan is a journalist and investigative reporter with 35 years of experience in New York, Los Angeles, Washington and Miami. His work has appeared in more than 100 newspapers, magazines and books. He can be reached by e-mail at: jtwg@bellsouth.net

justice77777777 said...

mogel said...
Does that requirement include the absolute necessity of postponing or continuing already existing court dates? Judges don't have to grant continuances if they don't want to or if Defendants or even attorneys have violated Court time frames already set up. By simply not showing up for Court by ignoring dates or simply fleeing or not showing up, doesn't necessitate that you have a right to have a court date at a later time. If you don't show up for court, you are in default by your own negligence. You're the clueless one! You're the one that said that since Julian isn't in the States yet, that the whole court time table has been changed since you assume that he has some great story to tell that will shock the very foundation of the Dorean process. If you mean something different, explain it, just don't resort to name calling. That just shows how childish you are. If you are going to make an accusation, at least have the courtesy to prove it or back it up with at least something of intelligence.

Mogel, here is the bottom line, so please read and then RESEARCH it before you and anyone else start to make assumptions.

The superceding indictment had 6 people total indicted collectively. Therefore, unless one or more file a motion to be severed from the other defendants, they will go on trial together, unless they plea out like it seems Tobias has already did. So, if Julian and Magoon are now and will be in custody, respectively, they will have to stand trial together unles anyone files and gets granted a motion to be severed from the remaining defendants. This is totally within the law and Alsup's power to do so.

justice77777777 said...

justice77777777 said...
Mogel, here is the bottom line, so please read and then RESEARCH it before you and anyone else start to make assumptions.

The superceding indictment had 6 people total indicted collectively. Therefore, unless one or more file a motion to be severed from the other defendants, they will go on trial together, unless they plea out like it seems Tobias has already did. So, if Julian and Magoon are now and will be in custody, respectively, they will have to stand trial together unles anyone files and gets granted a motion to be severed from the remaining defendants. This is totally within the law and Alsup's power to do so.

Let me conclude, mogel, with if Kurt & Scott are truly prepared to go to trial, they can motion to sever themselves and proceed to trial if the motion were granted. However, Kurt is smart enough to know that if he even motioned for such, he would be throwing his brokers to the wolves and they would be forced to defend on their own, when Kurt himself stated this would be a "temporary distraction" back in February when the superceding first was released.

Therefore, Kurt and Scott will have to eat whatever Judge Alsup throws their way because two of the brokers were stupid enough to flee the country, and now need to be brought up to speed with the defendants in custody in order to proceed.

mogel said...

Justice said: "unless one or more file a motion to be severed from the other defendants, they will go on trial together,"
___________________________________
What does going to trial as a group have to do with the requirement that ALL the Defendants being mandated to be present in Court before a trial can officially begin? The Court & government have already violated the Defendants constitutional rights, so what's another violation to them at this point? You don't think the trial can go on without 2 of the Defendants, assuming that 2 of the Brokers were never found? That's what you said before. So when they originally set the Court date of Jan. 2007 for the trial to begin, & knowing that 2 of the Defendants were still not found and at large that you are saying that the Court WASN'T serious about keeping that original trial date?

Granting a motion to ask to be severed as a Defendant????? LOL
Since you brought that point up, let me ask you, what rationale would be used for that long shot motion of even being considered by the prejudice Court? Hasn't the Court already shot down almost every other motion that has been filed? Has the Court even shown a propensity to listen and consider issues to date that have already been filed?

Yetter said...

After an article appeared in Havanas publication "Juventud Rebelde" saying that former President Bush Sr purchased a major i75,000 acre estate in Paraguay. A confirmation of the report came to me from a Paraguan. The estate sits on one of the largest Aquafers in the world, providing potable fresh water. Paraguay has granted American soldiers immunity from the jurisdiction of the international criminal court. This treaty has waffled so we will see if it holds. The difference between who is a war criminal and who is a war hero is historically defined by who wins and who loses. The question is will this apply to political control as well.

Yetter said...

REUTERS "Ford Motor Co said on thursday it was delaying the filing of its Quarterly report with the SEC while the CO completes a restatement of past results." Reports will use many definitions of the instruments that have caused the problem, but they all are over the counter derivatives which strike once more.

mogel said...

Justice said: "Let me conclude, mogel, with if Kurt & Scott are truly prepared to go to trial, they can motion to sever themselves and proceed to trial if the motion were granted."

AND WHAT POSSIBLE REASON WOULD YOU SUGGEST THAT WOULD CAUSE K&S TO DO THIS AS A SMART THING TO DO? MAYBE A BETTER QUESTION WOULD BE, IS THE PROSECUTION PREPARED TO GO TO TRIAL AND WHAT ARE THE REPERCUSSIONS THAT CAN RESULT FROM THAT FROM THE PROSECUTIONS POINT OF VIEW OR JUDGE ALSUP'S POINT OF VIEW?

SINCE IT'S OBVIOUS THAT IT'S THE PROSECUTIONS STRATEGY TO DIVIDE AND CONQUER & CAUSE DIVISION BETWEEN THE BROKERS AND THE DOREAN GROUP, & THAT'S WHY SOME OF THE BROKERS WERE INDICTED TOO, WHY WOULD THE JUDGE ALLOW A SEVERANCE OF THE DEFENDANTS IN THIS CASE? WASN'T IT JUDGE ALSUP THAT STARTED ALL OF THESE CRIMINAL PROCEEDINGS IN THE FIRST PLACE? ISN'T IT JUDGE ALSUP THAT HAS SHOWN A PROPENSITY TO GIVE THE PROSECUTION WHAT THEY WANT?


Justice 777 continues: "However, Kurt is smart enough to know that if he even motioned for such, he would be throwing his brokers to the wolves and they would be forced to defend on their own,"

WELL LET'S SEE.... DOESN'T MR. LECOMPTE HAVE HIS OWN ATTORNEY & ISN'T HE BEING REPRESENTED AND ISN'T HE DEFENDING HIMSELF ON HIS OWN & ISN'T HE RESPONSIBLE FOR THESE ATTORNEY FEES? WASN'T MAGOON & JULIAN DEFENDING THEIR OWN BUTTS BY DECIDING TO FLEE--- ASSUMING OF COURSE IF THAT WAS THEIR ORIGINAL REAL INTENTIONS? MAYBE THEY WERE JUST IN NEED OF VACATION TIME?

Justice continues: " Kurt himself stated this would be a "temporary distraction" back in February when the superceding first was released."

IF A TRIAL NEVER COMMENCES, IT IS A TEMPORARY DISTRACTION.

Justice continues: "Therefore, Kurt and Scott will have to eat whatever Judge Alsup throws their way because two of the brokers were stupid enough to flee the country, and now need to be brought up to speed with the defendants in custody in order to proceed."

EVERYTHING THAT HAS GONE ON IN COURT CAN BE DOWNLOADED FROM THE INTERNET. ARE YOU ASSUMING THAT JULIAN & MAGOON HAVEN'T BEEN REAL INTERESTED AT ALL IN WHAT HAS ALREADY TRANSPIRED & HAVEN'T KEPT UP OR DIDN'T HAVE COMPUTER INTERNET ACCESS WHERE THEY WERE LIVING OUTSIDE THE COUNTRY? IF YOU WERE INDICTED, DON'T YOU THINK YOU WOULD HAVE A CURIOUS INTEREST ON WHAT IS HAPPENING WITH THIS CASE? PEOPLE THAT AREN'T INDICTED ARE VERY INTERESTED IN WHAT IS GOING ON.

mogel said...

Justice777: Isn't Tobias also represented by legal counsel?

Besides, if the Court can't convict K&S, they certainly can't convict any of the Brokers, so if K&S win & get their freedom, all the Brokers win too and are legally safe.

So, Justice, why the sudden concern for Dorean Brokers?

Yetter said...

Remember in a Federal court the Constitution is a profanity.Truth has nothing to do with substance in the mind of Bill Alsup and selective justice 7,they have been found guilty and sentenced.

mogel said...

Witchy Princess said: "I can only hope that the federal goverment has enough sense to indict your ignorant ass on the same charges as the other four Dorean brokers. I bet that would shut you up for a while."
__________________________________
I'm sorry to say, that wouldn't SHUT ME UP, but would be like stepping on a coiled and rattling rattlesnack. Sometimes it's best to let sleeping dogs lie. My efforts compared to the Dorean Group's efforts and sacrifice to date, is like a sleeping dog. Putting me at risk, would only increase my dedication and voice to the cause since such an action would put me in jeopardy of my freedom. I love my freedom, more than you know.

If I'm a nuisance now, I would only hope to step it up several notches and become extremely annoying and much MORE vocal or outspoken. Have you ever noticed when you wish someone would shut the hell up, they usually increase their volume and point until the other party gives up or gives in? It's a personality type and trait of some people? Give people want they want, & they'll almost always go away. I was told one time by a woman that "women are bitches" because men don't give them what they want & satisfy their needs. Many people don't stop talking and become annoying because they feel they aren't heard. Punishing a person & not satisfying their needs and wants, only adds fuel to the fire.

son of a prophet said...

"Paraguay has granted American soldiers immunity from the jurisdiction of the international criminal court."



nonsense. people who dont believe in god beleive that.

the long arm of justice can/will find you no matter where you are if you have committed crimes against humanty. otherwise, there is not god, no justice. might as well be in the courtroom, no justice there either,it appears.

cant run and cant hide (perhpas if you could get to the moon, MAYBE!....nah, god will find you there too!)

papa_dont_preach said...

Mogel said, "Have you ever noticed when you wish someone would shut the hell up, they usually increase their volume and point until the other party gives up or gives in?"

Using Mogel's reverse logic, SOP, please KEEP posting your extremely long posts as opposed to providing links. DON'T create your own blog to post things that interest you.

Papa Done Preached again. ;P

justice77777777 said...

mogel said...
Justice777: Isn't Tobias also represented by legal counsel?

Besides, if the Court can't convict K&S, they certainly can't convict any of the Brokers, so if K&S win & get their freedom, all the Brokers win too and are legally safe.

So, Justice, why the sudden concern for Dorean Brokers?

Well, moogie, you totally missed the point. Again, I told you to do research before you respond, and you obviously did not honor my request.

Just keep up your own theories and trying to convince the sheeple on this blog who believe you, because one thing I can assure you, is that you are so off base and out in left field of what is really going on, you will come off as totally pathetic when all is said and done.

complainers suck said...

justice77777777 said...
Just keep up your own theories and trying to convince the sheeple on this blog who believe you, because one thing I can assure you, is that you are so off base and out in left field of what is really going on, you will come off as totally pathetic when all is said and done.

Unfortunately Mogel, I could not agree more with this statement.

wantobefree said...

Blah Blah Blah looks like the same ol shit differ day.Welcome to the USA idiots if you dont like it move out of the country,cause you aint gettin shit here for nothing unless your a scammer and a fraud, and we all know who that is.

~~The Swami~~~ said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Yetter said...

Wanta be free?. You have no concept of freedom nor its responsablity. Go back to your job(s)

~~The Swami~~~ said...

Karma Says...............I'll Live Another Day !!!!!

habakkuk said...

"Blah Blah Blah looks like the same ol shit differ day.Welcome to the USA idiots if you dont like it move out of the country,cause you aint gettin shit here for nothing unless your a scammer and a fraud, and we all know who that is. "

I SWEAR THIS GUY SAYS THE SAME THING EVERYTIME HE POSTS.....

NO THANKS WANTOBEFREE (IRONIC NAME FOR A GUY WHO COULD CARE LESS ABOUT INJUSTICE IN OUR SYSTEM), I LIKE MY COUNTRY JUST FINE...I'D RATHER HELP ESCORT THE PEOPLE WHO HI-JACKED IT OUT AND TELL THEM THEY CANT GET SOMETHING FOR NOTHING HERE...THANK YOU VERY MUCH:)

Yetter said...

In the progress of another whistle blower, Catherine Austin Fitts, the former auditor from Housing & Urban Development and the missing 1.5 trillion dollars. Without a dobt, HUD is a major fraud center rivaling any crime syndicate. This relates to the sewage stirring in Fannie Mae Portfolios (mortgage agreements turned derivitives), and the upcoming mortgage bond write downs and the threat to the U,S. banking system. Fannie routinly bought and still buys the lowest quality mortgages from loan originators, but the banks buy back some mortgage bonds from FNM, infecting their own assets. There is no precedent in modern history for an economy to be held up by asset growth without a manufactoring base. Such beliefs and trust serve as a reckless testimony to heretic U.S. based lunacy. This is a prescription for a disaster in full glory. Left field? Pathetic?. Indeed.

wantobefree said...

yetter - can you explain your comment of go back to your job,yes i will on monday prob 12hrs .See I come from nothing so everything i got i work for it nothing was given to me.Unlike you who prob got an inheritance or mommy & daddy still support you.Habakkuk I went to jail fighting for my freedom thats how much i used to care,after irs came knocking and the dorean group stole alot of money from me and many many other things that i got involoved in with this freedom fighter stuff ive came to conclusions unless you have power and money its time to go with the flow again ,there has been injustices in our system for decades and unless evrybody in the country bands together and fights the system there aint shit going to happen.As far as your comment what do you want me to do look in a book Like most of you and copy out of it to make my self look smart.Im on here for one reason ,To find out when im gettin my money back.That ive posted many times.So thanks but no thanks for your 2cents

mogel said...

Complainers Suck: Is it too much to ask to have you validate your concurrence with Justice 777 with some reasons rather than just a response? You used the word, "unfortunately" as if you wished I was right in my conclusions, but something else is telling you differently, so explain those other feelings or thoughts & go into depth a little more.

If you feel that you have a better insight into what is really going on, then, please share.

mogel said...

Justice 777: I can assure you, is that you are so off base and out in left field of what is really going on, you will come off as totally pathetic when all is said and done.
________________________________
Obviously, you think I'm totally pathetic NOW, so what is your point?

habakkuk said...

He wanna be, i liked ya better when the irs was after ya.....you made better sense back then. At least you stood for something...Now you cant think of anything except a few thousand dollars that you lost. Oh yeah, about that.....dont blame the dorean group, blame the banks and the government who broke the very laws they CLAIM to inforce....They stole your money.

mogel said...

Justice said: "Well, moogie, you totally missed the point. Again, I told you to do research before you respond, and you obviously did not honor my request."
__________________________________
Well, you didn't honor my request to answer the questions I've already posed to you either, so I guess that makes us even.

So I take it you've researched these issues? Fine, then provide some links for all of us to read. I just have trouble getting past the things you say because there are holes in your assertions, assumptions, and conclusions, and what you say doesn't make sense to me.

Why would you even suggest that K&S should motion to separate themselves from the other Defendants?

Why would you suggest that K&S aren't prepared?

Why would you suggest that the trial couldn't go on had Julian not have been apprehended? He's not expected back in the States until a week before Christmas anyway. Doesn't sound like a pressing issue to me to the Feds to bring him back immediately.

Why do you think all of a sudden Magoon feels a need to come back & face the music of reality. She hasn't been gone too long, so please don't tell me that it's hell being a fugitive because I'm not buying that argument. You are innocent until proven guilty by your peers. Peers don't comprise a special interest group like what's been assembled against the Dorean Group already.

mogel said...

Want to be free said: "Im on here for one reason ,To find out when im gettin my money back."
__________________________________
May I suggest then, you are wasting your time then coming to this blog. Just leave and wait until you receive the phone call from Dr. Fred. At that point, you will know when the timing is happening that you will get credit for your money back.

complainers suck said...

mogel said...
If you feel that you have a better insight into what is really going on, then, please share.

You will see when the chips fall the way they do, who was right and who was wrong when communicating their conclusions.

I'll leave it at that, and yes I do wish your conclusions would be the end result when all things shake out in the end, but "unfortunately", your conclusions will be wishful thinking at best. When the time comes and all is said and done, Kurt and Co. will get steam-rolled.

Oh, and Dr. Fred is nothing short of a lunatic with his false communications regarding the end is near and money at the end of the rainbow.

wantobefree said...

Mogel for once you said something that is the truth and not a DREAM.I will take your suggestion cause this blog is worthless and as dr.Fred callin HUH what the fuck ever.Ive come to conclusions that someone got the money ,thats alright you can have it i will let GOD make his decision with you,thou shall not steal Im not holy but i do know this.You all have a nice life posting words out of books.P.S habakkuk if i wanted to hear from a dickhead i would of rattled my zipper.You all take care ya hear.

neodemes said...

moogie sez: "You are innocent until proven guilty by your peers. Peers don't comprise a special interest group like what's been assembled against the Dorean Group already."

***********************************

Maybe they can't find 12 people numb enough to qualify as peers?

:-)

tcod247 said...

wantobefree said...

I went to jail fighting for my freedom thats how much i used to care,after irs came knocking and the dorean group stole alot of money from me....

+++++++
So how did Dorean steal your money? Wait, don't tell me, someone put a gun to your head?

Caveat Emptor. So the rule here is "let the buyer beware" :)

KYHOOYA said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
son of a prophet said...

....nice ta see y'all gettin' along soooooo wellllllll.....


ahm sho god is just lookin' down an luvin' it all....."yup, those ma peeple down thay...."

an thays all made in my image...or was it my imag-ination...

mogel said...

Want to Be Free said: " Ive come to conclusions that someone got the money ,thats alright you can have it i will let GOD make his decision with you,"
_________________________________
If you ever want to blame someone else besides me, you can always blame the FBI & single them out if you like. After all, monies sent to me, then sent to the Dorean Group, eventually ended up in a bank account that the FBI seized, took, & kept for no legitimate reason. Maybe they deserve a size 14 shoe put in their face too? Course, I won't say for sure either, I'll also let God handle it. God always does handle things anyway, but it's just that we don't always like his time table, nor do we always understand it.

mogel said...

Complainers Suck said: "Oh, and Dr. Fred is nothing short of a lunatic with his false communications regarding the end is near and money at the end of the rainbow."
___________________________________
My perspective is such that I don't consider someone who has great optimism and great faith as tantamount to a deceiving lunatic. Is optimism equal to deception?
Are dreams equal to delusion?
Are mistakes equal to falsehoods?

I think it "sucks" that someone like yourself who is intelligent & respected for past enlightening posts, has now decided to be pessimistic due to what I perceive to be a defeatist outlook which is tantamount to a form of "complaining" and a person who possibly has lost his vision and is unable to see the light at the end of the tunnel. Possibly you have become your username.

The problem I have with saying those things is that I genuinely like you for your past devotion & your past attitudes & it does hurt me to see a perceived transformation in you.

Anyway, I think there is much to hope for RIGHT NOW in light of the trial being postponed & efforts towards a settlement.

It's just as easy to hope and believe the best, and look at the postives, rather than to allow your thoughts to be manipulated and dwell too much on the negatives.

mogel said...

Nemo said: "Maybe they can't find 12 people numb enough to qualify as peers?"
________________________________

We haven't gotten that far yet Nemo, so how would anyone know, so I fail to see the humor there. :o)

Clueless Fudd said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
complainers suck said...

mogel said...
Anyway, I think there is much to hope for RIGHT NOW in light of the trial being postponed & efforts towards a settlement.

The only reason why the trial is being postponed, is because of the new defendants being brougth into the mix, and you can read this with the latest filings as being the cause, for confirmation NOT specualtion.

Secondly, there are no settlements, and this can be easily proven. You, yourself Mogel have seen who has been assigned the judgments, and the person and company in receivership have ZERO knowledge of settlements, and this firm would have to be totally involved.

Let me sum this up by saying, what firm in their right mind would buy paper from a firm whose principles are in custody and to stand trial for the alleged fraudulent way this paper was obtained? If and when the principles are convicted, this firm would then be without a doubt in possession of worthless paper.

Would you buy something from someone and believe it to have value if the person who sold it to you was convicted of fraud for the means in which the good was obtained?

Now, Fred Johnson doesn't know anything more than you, Mogel with regards to closure to the case and money at the end of the rainbow, and from your posts, you certainly are now aware of what's really going on, or you just don't want to face reality.

mogel said...

Complainers Suck said: "The only reason why the trial is being postponed, is because of the new defendants being brougt into the mix, and you can read this with the latest filings as being the cause, for confirmation NOT speculation."
___________________________________
The cause was not clear to me even after reading those transcripts. I'm glad it's clear for you. The cause for the trial postponement could very well be the latest plea arrangement that the government is investigating right now. That seems like a more likely cause than the reason you have suggested in my opinion. Or why was a court date set in the first place when the 2 Defendants were missing and not in custody or found?
________________________________

Complainer Sucks continues: "Secondly, there are no settlements, and this can be easily proven. You, yourself Mogel have seen who has been assigned the judgments, and the person and company in receivership have ZERO knowledge of settlements, and this firm would have to be totally involved."
___________________________________
I don't disagree with the assertion that the Firm mentioned would probably have to have some knowledge of what is going on, however, there is something called agency. An agent can act in behalf of a Principal's best interest & the firm or Principal doesn't even have to be involved TOTALLY, so I reject your assumption. Also, the Government could step in and offer a financial settlement ANYTIME that could be acceptable. If you put time limits on performance, than you might suffer from disappointment even now. ________________________________

Complainers Suck continues: "Let me sum this up by saying, what firm in their right mind would buy paper from a firm whose principles are in custody and to stand trial for the alleged fraudulent way this paper was obtained?
_______________________________
Could very well be the sole reason why to date, no dorean client has been paid anything. However, you also offer another reason why we have more damages as clients. "Alleged fraudulent way this paper was obtained?" The default of the lender was CONFIRMED by a notarial protest process too after the silence & default of the lenders & done according to the rules of the UCC. Can fraud be maintained if you follow the UCC perfectly? Isn't that a contradiction? The cases have been settled, no matter what type of rhetoric the prosecution wants to assert or allege.

Seems to me a prudent investor who might want to take a risk, might even choose to overlook the trial nonsense that at this point in time is not a fact of guilt, but only an allegation at this point in time. If the Principals go free, doesn't the value of the damages or the judgments go up in value by the same reasoning?
________________________________


Complainer Sucks continues: " If and when the principles are convicted, this firm would then be without a doubt in possession of worthless paper."
_________________________________

You conclusion assumes that the trial was fair & that the judgment of the court CAN'T be overturned & THAT THERE ARE NO APPEALABLE ISSUES. As far as some clients may be concerned, the paper is worthless NOW because they don't have a bank account balance to reassure them that there is value in the process and the paper.
_________________________________

Complainer Sucks continues: "Would you buy something from someone and believe it to have value if the person who sold it to you was convicted of fraud for the means in which the goods were obtained?"
________________________________
Assuming I was a legitimate buyer, I would have to factor in an appropriate discount based upon my chances of collecting on these judgments or my value in using these judgments as assets to fractionalize or as something to trade with, or the value I could use them as collateral for other purposes such as improving my financial statement to another lender. Also does your question assume that I am being backed by a large institution to buy these judgments with no money of my own put into the transaction? Such a scenario changes the meaning of your question. You know I'm not a legitimate buyer, so why assume that in a rhetorical question? Buying debt is not my specialty or area of expertise. Certainly I am not a legitimate, & able and willing buyer for these judgments.

Hey, doesn't the IRS seize property & they do it without due process of law, & even without a valid & legal court judgment or valid legal process, do they not? Don't they get away with it almost all the time and don't they get paid whether they seize houses or bank accounts or garnish wages? They go unchallenged most of the time, do they not? Course, I am not a good or even fair example of the type of investor that might be interested in these judgments.

It's going to have to take a person or firm or country that has a sizeable net worth & vast amount of money to fight things in court a very long time if challenged or someone willing to appeal the issues to the Supreme Court or international court of law, whatever is applicable or necessary. Maybe the decree of a court here means nothing as opposed to the international court which might be the final verdict if challenged.
________________________________
Complainers sucks continues: "Now, Fred Johnson doesn't know anything more than you,"
_______________________________
I can't speak for what others know or don't know or the vastness of their knowlege of the particulars of all things or any negotiations that have taken place in the past, or that are taking place right now or will take place later.
________________________________
Complainers Suck continues:

"Mogel with regards to closure to the case and money at the end of the rainbow, and from your posts, you certainly are now aware of what's really going on, or you just don't want to face reality."
______________________________
Reality is truth. I think I explained one time what the definition of truth is: "Truth is knowledge of things as they are, as they were, and as they are to come." Since I don't know the beginning to the end EVEN NOW, how can you say I don't want to face reality? I can only face what I understand. I certainly can't face what I don't understand completely.

Let me please thank you for your thoughtful and challenging post.

complainers suck said...

mogel said...
Let me please thank you for your thoughtful and challenging post.

You are quite welcome, and I have to compliment you on your grit and determination. In all honesty, I hope I am wrong, but when the dust settles, your cheerleading, hopes, dreams and expectations will be all in vain.