Tuesday, August 28, 2007

Your Fleshly Champion (August 20, 2007)

On August 14, 16 and 17th 2007 we met with the prosecution to hammer out a deal. In the end they were stuck on about 7-8 years for the two of us and about 5 for Bill. It was a very revealing time to finally have some communication with the strangers who seem to think they know so much about your life. We tried to keep the negotiations about the facts of the case but they were not having it. I'm giving you some of the amendments I tried to have incorporated in the plea agreement. You'll notice I am still asking for the all elusive validation of debt. Ms. Dimke was quick to offer her opinion that the debts were valid but none will take on the liability of a factual statement. The below government affirmations were to modify what they didn't say and the Defendant affirmations were in addition to the affirmations they had already written for us. I want you to pay close attention to the fleshly desires of your champion. You clients who really believe these liars are beyond foolish. Just reading these provisions should let you know clearly that I am still acting as your fiduciary protecting your interest even at my own peril. I am a perfect example to these so called representatives what they should be doing in their public office. Instead I got used car salesmen who don't have the courage to tell their bosses they will not execute evil trying to scare me into their false understandings of the future. I have always been amazed how prophetic men who don't have a relationship with God can be about their futures or the futures of others. Kathia Colon one of the FBI agents was present. She is a beautiful woman who wears her pregnancy well. I'm certain having been a parent now 3-times that she is having expectations of an easy delivery and a healthy child. Likewise that is my desire for her and her husband, but that expectation can only be a hope real in the generosity of God. What if the child is still born or unhealthy? Will the FBI be there to make it healthy with their paycheck? Will she pray to the paycheck or weep to her employer? I suspect not. In fact I bet she would give every worldly possession she has to save the child. If that is the reality why is it that these people without any reverence for God would under orders condemn innocence and participate in this charade they call criminal justice. They think we have drunk the kool-aid! Secondly Spero Stamos was present, another FBI agent, one who was present at our raid, and he made gestures that he has been studying the subject matter and he knows it is complicated. They know we are not con-men and that we are telling the truth but because an entire gaggle of economic retards and political hacks sing the marching orders they won't stand up and be counted as men who revere the Living God. He claims to understand my convictions of faith and I will say that this is yet to be proven because my brothers in Christ are not cowards.

Their was no braver act in history than to march to the cross solely on the promise of God's word. Until you practice the same faith of Christ you are a coward and not fit for the kingdom of God. Don't think I'm picking on these people by telling them the truth. I have prayed for all of them to get stupid knocked out of their souls. As I write this now I am on my last 40-day fast for them to make the right choice. Unlike these blind prophets I do have a relationship with God and do understand the plans he has for me in the future. On the 17th we switched courses and this course is short. If they would go into their prayer closets and speak to God they would discover that I never had a chance of defeat and that this long delay was not our ineptness but our patience and God's mercy graciously giving them opportunity to see the truth. I have always been completely under-whelmed by their evil. I was more than prepared for my enemy and yours long before they ever appeared. When I said on TV that the dumbest thing the government could do was to bring criminal charges I knew what I was saying and giving them a stern warning not to go down the path of stupid but none would listen. Ms. Dimke plainly stated she could not insert these affirmations. She is not ignorant and know the concepts of law I addressed in them. By her denial she admits she is a drone without any self accountability. Funny she was about to hop on a plane which I am certain she has many frequent hours upon. It takes faith in the pilot and the machine to even hop on this plane and yet she will not exercise that amount of faith on her eternal salvation. This is a look at your champion! They are blind to any real truth though they all hope to benefit from God and condemn themselves by their own testimony over and over again. Those of you in the faith will understand this comment. The courageous never have to fear the scheming of the cowards because they can never fathom the lands they walk or what type of traps to lay. How much more those whose footsteps are ordered of the Lord? Victory will be swift and complete and it will separate the sheep from the goats.

The Government Affirmations:
The government confirms and affirms to the grantor's and beneficiaries of the various respective surnamed trusts incidental to this agreement and to all Dorean Group clients that they independently verified that the loan agreements relevant to the real property of the trusts res was materially true in the statements made and that no material omissions were present that would make the document false or misleading. That the lenders complied fully with the principals of public policy which are honesty in fact, fair dealing, full disclosure, reasonable skill, diligence, care, and good faith, as well as all applicable laws, statutes and regulations.

We further affirm that based on this verification we assert that the trustees of the relevant surnamed trusts erred in their remedy in that they violated public policy, the Uniform Commercial Codes, and their fiduciary obligations in that they subjected the trusts to damages by causing a breach of a valid loan contract, and subsequent mortgage instrument.

We confirm and affirm that should proof ever surface that the above affirmations are false or misleading against public policy this agreement will be void ab initio and the case/account will be settled by a dismissal with prejudice.

We confirm and affirm that in the event of forfeiture and/or restitution that the government is not obtaining any claim superior or paramount to any other creditor and that other assets of equal or greater value can be accepted as settlement over that which has already been seized.

The Defendant's Affirmations:
I confirm that the facts as stated herein are accepted as true based on the government's affirmations, to eliminate any controversy, to come to an accord, and to accept the government's offer to settle and close this case/account in accordance with public policy.

I confirm that none of the limitations as to remedies for redress shall hinder my right to obtain the factual truth in the matter and that if any waiver has been agreed to prior it is modified and not to be construed as any limitation toward the pursuit of truth.

Sure seems like contracting doesn't it? I've been trained all my life in business not in the parameters of procedure. I always know my footing and that is further evidence your champion is ill equipped. If you can educate yourself out of your ignorance you might want to switch champions. Better hurry though time is of the essence.


sopsback said...

"....Good afernooon, this is yo catpin speeking, want to tank yo all fo flying Apocalypse Air."

"We will shortly be landing and disembarking....."



Posted: September 6, 2007
1:00 a.m. Eastern

By Jerome R. Corsi
© 2007 WorldNetDaily.com

The first "North American Union" driver's license, complete with a hologram of the continent on the reverse, has been created in North Carolina.

"The North Carolina driver's license is 'North American Union' ready," charges William Gheen, president of Americans for Legal Immigration.

Gheen provided WND with a photo of an actual North Carolina license which clearly shows the hologram of the North American continent embedded on the reverse.

"The hologram looks exactly [like] the map of North America that is used as the background for the Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America logo on the SPP website," Gheen told WND. "I object to the loss of sovereignty that is proceeding under the agreements being made by these unelected government bureaucrats who think we should be North American instead of the United States of America.

Security and Prosperity Partnership logo

"To protest, I don't plan on applying for a North Carolina driver's license," Gheen told WND, "even though I am a resident of the state. I don't see how a Division of Motor Vehicles authorized in a Department of Transportation of a state of the United States can force me to have a license place that is designed with a North American Union insignia printed on the backside.

"My decision not to get a North Carolina driver's license could have very difficult consequences for me," Gheen told WND. "Without a valid driver's license, I may not be able to drive a car, fly on an airplane, or enter a government building."

Gheen told WND he does not have a U.S. passport.


Yetter said...

"I don't make jokes. I just watch the goverment and report the facts."..Will Roger's
It has become such a tragic affair of which this remarkable effort by Kurt and Scott has become.That our leaders of this once proud nation "under God,truth and justice for all" has become a gang of lyar's,thieves and con artists, all protecting the money changers at the temple.
The new shadow banking system is huge and beyond the tools of the central banks. The new code word for over the counter derivatives is now "structured products".This is a finacial catagory 5 storm, planetary killer. This problem will neither be spun away nor fixed by any intrest rate adjustment. Its Einsteins definition of madness to think the same people who got us into this, will get us out.
This to will pass. Ahmen.

near the end said...

Nemo and notrial dissent and judge bean head etc....... etc.......etc.....

I said it before and I'll say it again you guys are waaaaaaaay!!!!! out of your class.

God Bless you K@S.

mogel007 said...

Kurt writes:
"We further affirm that based on this verification we assert that the trustees of the relevant surnamed trusts erred in their remedy in that they violated public policy, the Uniform Commercial Codes, and their fiduciary obligations in that they subjected the trusts to damages by causing a breach of a valid loan contract, and subsequent mortgage instrument."

So this is what you mean when you said, "you will NOT BELIEVE what I'm about to do" or agree to.

Can I take it that you are going to agree to a lie in order to settle this Court case, yet still leave yourself "an out" in your contracting, where if you find anything that proves the lie beyond a shadow of a doubt that this latest agreement proves to be a lie, in the name of justice, that the judgment inflicted by the Judge becomes moot and invalid, thus giving you a "get out of jail free card"?

The problem I see with this latest affirmation or offer, is that the government would probably want to jump all over this offer with jubilation & be more than willing to inflict NOW, the 5 years for Julian, the 7 years for Scott, & the 8 years for you, Kurt.

This would give them the "public victory" that they've wanted since day one. I clearly see now why you knew that there WOULD BE NO TRIAL EVER and no jury picked to hear this matter in it's entirety.

However, I see that this is "your trap". You want them to inflict the punishment or you are just "calling their bluff" to end this poker game to see what the Judge will do. You've made it clear that you've done everything you set out to do. It's becoming more clear that you want them to penalize ALL THE DEFENDANTS OR SETTLE THIS CASE, for the lie that the naysayers have accepted for being "stupid".

The problem being for the government/prosecution is that there is plenty of evidence already OTHERWISE IN THE COURT RECORD NOW proving that this latest agreement IS A LIE. You want Judge Alsup to inflict a punishment despite the facts of the court record that a jail time sentence is unwarranted by THE FACTS ALONE PROVING A JAIL PENALTY IS WRONG.

I agree STILL that the stupidiest thing that the government could ever do was to bring fraud charges against you, but the fact of the matter is, this is exactly what they've done and they don't seem to be looking back considering all of their errors to date they've committed or the traps they've already fallen into. It doesn't appear that the "stupid" desire to educate themselves ever, even though they've been given more chances than they ever deserved.

I know too that you can rely on God's words, & that in the end you will be blessed beyond your wildest imaginations, although it's not always the natural or easiest thing to do by giving yourself away to "God's will and instruction" especially in the light of mortal uncertainty & perceived danger. God bless you Kurt.

How does the "private victory" for Dorean clients enter into or figure into all of this latest contracting agreement & how is this "private victory" assured?

mogel007 said...

"Oh the cunning plan of the evil one! O the vainness and the frailities and the foolishness of men! When they are learned, they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, FOR THEY SET IT ASIDE, supposing they know of themselves, whrefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish.

But to be learned is good IF THEY HEARKEN UNTO THE COUNSELS OF GOD."

Judge Roy Bean said...

Gashler, you still hangin' on to the lie about clients being rewarded?

In the mean time, more clients keep coming forward and getting their trusts disolved to save their homes.

Wonder when the Feds will finally get around to you.

mogel007 said...

"Your Fleshly Champion"

"Oh Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the ARM OF FLESH; for I know that CURSED is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm.
Yea, I know that God will give liberally to him that asketh. Yea, my God will give me, if I ask not amiss; therefore,, I will lift up my voice unto thee; yea, I will cry unto thee, my God, the rock of my righteousness. Behold, my voice shall forever, ascend up unto thee, my rock and mine everlasting God. Amen."

mogel007 said...

Judge Roy Obscene said:

"Gashler, you still hangin' on to the lie about clients being rewarded?"


In the mean time, more clients keep coming forward and getting their trusts disolved to save their homes.


Wonder when the Feds will finally get around to you?


Yetter said...

DGs work for its clients is almost done. Our buddy Bill will finish it up.

mogel007 said...

"That the lenders complied fully with the principals of public policy which are honesty in fact, fair dealing, full disclosure, reasonable skill, diligence, care, and good faith, as well as all applicable laws, statutes and regulations."


The criminal charges should have never been filed in the first place against any of the Defendants since the above statement IS TOTALLY FALSE.

I guess your affirmation gives new meaning to the following scripture:

Math 5: 25

"Agree with thine adversary QUICKLY, while thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge; and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison."

mogel007 said...

Judge Roy Obscene. Here is the answer to your question:

Gal 6: 7

"Be not deceived; God is not mocked; for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap."

justice7777777 said...

Yetter said...
DGs work for its clients is almost done. Our buddy Bill will finish it up.

Which "Bill" are you referring to? Is it the one who just plead guilty, lol lol lol lol lol lol (in honor of moogie)?

sopsback said...

near the end, here is one fo yo....


now yo no yo end is nigh....


never saw a jew writing aabout the end is coming before this.

if a jew (bernard baruch) is writing this, maybe yo all should be listing.....

sopsback said...

now let all rember to be like K&S and let have sum mercy on the bad ones, as we rember....

"where sin abounds, grace abounds EVEN MORE!"

case yo don no what that means is that the most evil sinners who are still alive are already getting a FULL dose of grace, and then even more, as if they werent, they would even still be here. so rember that. yeshua is emptying his pockets where sin abounds. for the light sinners, he paid the price too, but there is a parable here.

the worse the sinner, the more grace he is using up, else he would already be daid. so we nedd to have mercy on them too. the bakers are getting a full prommisory note of grace or they already gone. now it possible some already use up they p-note.

the battle is won, now time to have mercy.

"to those with mercy,
mercy shall be shown them;
to those without mercy,

to those w/o mercy, yo think yo in easy, and god ask yo if yo was good, and yo say yes, but, someday god gonna say to yo: did yo have mercy on others?

and yo say, no.

god will say, now yo condemned.

now yo ask god fo mercy an yo say..."god, can yo give me break"?

and god say, "sorry, cant help yo. see ya!" h'asta l'vista baby!

mogel007 said...

Justice said: Which "Bill" are you referring to? Is it the one who just plead guilty, lol lol lol lol lol lol (in honor of moogie)?

Justice you are like the Biblical character Eve, the mother of all living. You're like a deceived little immature girl. She listened to the serpent who spoke for the Devil. She was chastised not for her act, because her act brought to the earth certain events that were preordained events & plans of God anyway, but chastized for "believing a lie," & her actions based upon yielding to the evil power for her spiritual guidance. She listened to the serpent & believed & heeded Satan OVER GOD. Remember the lie: the serpent said, "YE SHALL NOT SURELY DIE, BUT BECOME AS THE gods". Eve relied upon that false statement for her guidance. It's a fact that Eve DID DIE, both spiritually and physically which was the penalty, literal separation from God and eventual physical death in one day (God's time).

Now Adam was in a different boat. He did not listen to the serpent, nor was he beguiled by the serpent, but merely partook of the fruit to obey God's first & GREATER commandment of:
"multiply & replenish the earth". Adam could not comply with this GREATER and FIRST commandment GIVEN, once Even partook of the forbidden fruit for Eve would have been cast out of the Garden, DUE TO THE JUSTICE OF GOD and Adam would have remained there alone without Eve, had he have not partaken of the fruit eventually too. How do you have babies by yourself?

You see, Eve finally gave Adam no more choice by her actions. Eve's actions forced Adam into MAKING A CHOICE: To be with Eve, or not be with Eve. To multiply and multiply and replenish the earth, or not multiply and replenish the earth.

Adam did things for a HIGHER PURPOSE & obeyed the higher commandment of pro-creation & his action of taking the fruit was based upon this perception and his need to be a real man and obey God always.
So Adam was not the one who transgressed in the sense of listening to the evil source for his decisions & spiritual guidance & one who believed a lie:

"And Adam WAS NOT DECEIVED, but the woman BEING DECEIVED, was in the transgression." I Timothy 2: 14

You see Kurt & Scott & even Bill know what they are doing. They do what they do NOT BEING DECEIVED, UNLIKE YOU. They are taking a choice that is the best one out there & one that is ordained & blessed of God, BECAUSE THE FACTS DON'T MATTER IN THIS COURT CASE which the prosecution has made abundantly clear. The remaining true and faithful 3 defendants are all like Adam, our first parent on this earth, true and faithful to the end & doing whatever is required to please God.

Since I believe that financial settlement is sure, I don't see how any recent actions or plea agreements by Bill or Kurt & Scott, have dishonored anyone, including myself, anymore than the actions of Adam have dishonored anyone. You wouldn't be here on this earth without the choice Adam made in his decision to take the fruit with the HIGHER PURPOSES in mind.

But continue to believe, whatever you want. The end results will tell the whole story & you will be DISHONORED IN THE END. Just be a little more patient, you'll see. It shouldn't be too much longer.
Have another bag of popcorn!!!!!

justice7777777 said...

mogel007 said... nothing as usual. Your buddy Bill didn't finish anything except maybe finishing and shattering more hopes of the duo prevailing

neodemes said...

“Teach me to do thy will; for thou art my God: thy spirit is good; lead me into the land of uprightness.” (Psalm 143:10)

neodemes said...

Moogie yammers about Adam...

He doesn't seem to grasp that the commandment not to eat of the fruit was given to Adam, not Eve and that the punishment was death, not separation.

Gen.16And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

And, obviously, the death sentence was not immediate, as in the case of Uzzah, for instance.

Plenty of time to multiply.

Yammer on moogie, keep justifying the unjustifiable.

For the latest dim duo shenanigans see THIS

Pauligirl said...

mogel007 said...
"judgment demands for release of the kidnapped Dorean Group put before the Senate Judiciary committee in July 2007"
Here's the hearing schedule for July 2007 for the Senate Judiciary committee


Let me know where the judgment demands for release of the kidnapped Dorean Group appears.
As I told you before, Mr. Hansen is not quite all there.

Now, once again, do you agree that the Fugate case involved a worthless Bill of Exchange and the case is not as advertised on the famguardian site?

mogel007 said...

"Ms. Dimke plainly stated she could not insert these affirmations."


Another honest attempt at attempting to settle the matter without trial & another attempt to plead guilty that gets rejected again? Will that be the verdict or end result AGAIN ?

How many times does it take to plead guilty & get the plea rejected before it's apparent to even the MOST STUPID, that the charges by the prosecution are a complete farce?

I know that sounds like a joke that someone might ask: How many lawyers does it take to screw in a light bulb so they can ALL see?

I wonder which part of Kurt's affirmation Dimke was so offended by? Was it the "pursuit of truth" idea and that if the affirmations are DISCOVERED TO BE false, that the plea agreement will be void"? Maybe "Discovery" is a dirty word too with a Capital D? Or is it the policy of the Court to convict innocence simply because it's a game & if you can't play the game well, you must lose and be convicted and punished regardless of guilt or innocence?
Maybe Dimke was offended by the complete list because she's totally offensive herself? What kind of moronic lawyer would be offended by these things & be opposed to have these things included in a plea:

1. Honesty in fact
2. Fair dealing
3. Full disclosure
4. Reasonable skill
5. Diligence
6. Care
7. Good faith
8. applicable laws, statutes and regulations

mogel007 said...

Nemo said: "He doesn't seem to grasp that the commandment not to eat of the fruit was given to Adam, not Eve and that the punishment was death, not separation."

The word "man" often refers to "mankind" which also refers to both male & female.

Why does that not surprise me that you believe a just and merciful God would punish Eve for a consequence that she wasn't warned about or a commandment that didn't apply to her? Yep, that's the god you worship all right!!!

Why does it not surprise me too that you don't understand the simple definition of spiritual death, which is nothing more than literal separation from God. So if physical death was a consequence of the Fall, you conclude automatically and with certainty, that there could be NO OTHER consequences either of the Fall like "spiritual death" also? What you don't understand that before the fall, Adam & Eve walked & talked with God. They were literally in HIS presence. They were literally cast out of the Garden of Eden & hid from God & were ashamed because they finally discovered they were naked. They didn't even know they were naked until AFTER the fall, so how are they going to multiply and repenish the earth in this innocent & ignorant state before the Fall? It's an impossibility. Just like if Kurt gets life in a federal prison, he isn't having a baby with his wife. No conjugal visits, remember????????????

Since a transgression was committed, they were no longer worthy to be in God's presence & had to be cast out. So you want to believe that God punishes without warning or that God exacts a punishment when there was no law for Eve since no commandment was given to her? You want to believe that God gave no law or no commandment to Eve, yet inflicted a punishment anyway on her & even said "she was deceived and in the transgression" even no law applied to her? Eve couldn't have been deceived if she had no law given to her because no law could have been applicable to judge her by. Maybe you are too stupid to see that though?

You probably also believe that retarded people should be judged by the same standard as people with knowledge or intelligence, being the unjust person that you are. You want to have Eve punished when there was no law forbidding her to partake of the fruit. Nemo, you truly are a piece of work.

Course you want to give a punishment to Kurt & Scott when no law has been given or violated either by them, so I guess I'm not really surprised by the way your mind works.

If a commandment was given to Adam, then you automatically conclude that the same law WAS NOT GIVEN TO EVE TOO? Maybe you also believe that laws and punishments and disclosure requirements apply to different sexes differently? Are you also a sexist pig, or is the god of your imagination, also the same? How is Eve accountable to a punishment to anything if there was no commandment given to her? If she is not accountable, than why does she deserve a punishment? Or is this just another example of your warped sense of justice coming through your perverted mind?

"And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness, there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness, there be no punishment, nor misery. And if these things are not, then there is no God. And if there is no God, we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore all things must have vanished away."

Nemo, are you also admittedly an "antiChrist" which you want to add to your notorious list already?

See 2 Nephi 2: 17-25 (Concerning Adam & Eve)

mogel007 said...

Nemo said: "Plenty of time to multiply."

Mortal time did not BEGIN until after the Fall. My comment about pro-creation referred to their non-ability to do this before the Fall & the necessity or importance of the Fall to fulfill the 1st commandment given. Had Adam & Eve never partaken, there would be "no time" as we know it now & definitely no fulfullment of the Lord's first commandment to multiply & replenish the Earth. So keep "yammering" on yourself Nemo. That's what you are best at. I thought you looked smarter when you use to say "Keep tap dancing" all the time to me. Course that's when I didn't understand what the dance was all about.

2 Ne 2: 22-25

"And now, behold if Adam had not transgressed, he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the SAME STATE in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.
And they would have HAD NO CHILDREN; wherefore they would have remained in a STATE OF INNOCENCE, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.
But behold all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.

Adam fell that MEN MIGHT BE, and men are, that they might have joy."

By the way, Adam & Even were so innocent BEFORE THE FALL, that they could not have created any children. No sexual desire existed before the Fall whatsoever.

Partaking of the fruit not only changed their nature, but the nature of all creations around them. The term "Fall" caused a change of state of all things, not just the understanding & nature of Adam & Eve alone.

mogel007 said...

Judge Roy Bean said: "Gashler, you still hangin' on to the lie about clients being rewarded?"

Judge, are you still hangin' on the lie that the Dorean Group are NOT following the Lord's will in their work? Do you still believe that Kurt's fasts and even his "last fast" as he calls it, are nothing more than a physical endurance contest to announce his own abilities, without any counsel to receive direction from the Lord in regards to this court case? So do you still believe that Kurt "fasts without a purpose"? Do you think the Lord won't answer him?

Does the Lord bless & reward His followers?
Does the Lord keep & fulfill his words? Or would you even know?

I answered your questions, now why don't you answer mine, or do you consider yourself "too good" to answer my questions?

mogel007 said...

Pauligirl asked: "Let me know where the judgment demands for release of the kidnapped Dorean Group appears."

The whole Federal case against the Dorean Group revolves around alleged bank fraud. This presupposes that the banks are the creditors because they lent out their own money. For bank fraud to stand, the banks MUST BE THE CREDITOR in the lending transaction & they must have a valid claim & they must be acting as legitimate corporations WITH LEGAL AUTHORITY.

Now if Mr. Alvin Hansen has credible judgments against "half the Earth" as SOP says, & owns Bank of America & other lending institutions due to his judgment creditor interest against them, perfecting by his judgment of record in the Court, & his filing of UCC liens, then in fact, Mr. Hansen's corporation is the creditor, not HALF THE BANKS & the banks were using Mr. Hansen's trillions of dollars or using his creditor interest in HIS corporations illegally to show the illusion of "lending THEIR money".

If Mr. Hansen assigned his creditor interest to the Dorean Group by an "assignment of debt" or through a "payment of debt" to satisfy the origination of the Federal Case being brought into existence, than how can there even be a LEGITIMATE trial?

Money was originated or put up before the charges were even filed against all of the Defendants. If payment was made, by Mr. Hansen's "assignment of judment" to the Dorean Group or by payment, due to his "creditor interest" which was perfected, then the charges must go away & there can't be a trial. You know, the "no harm, no foul" principle.

This would be as unjust as suing someone for a debt, after being paid for an alleged debt, and the fony creditor or representative also wanting to take this to court and the Judge trying to inflict a fraud judgment against him, even though the unwarranted debt was paid anyway & there was no dispute.

This type of reasoning was partially explained by Kurt's blog about "following the money trail" and finding it & satisfying the alleged debt, to make the case and charges go away, but apparently Mr. Alvin Hansen has already done that & demands their release as the true creditor, not the phony creditors called the banks.

near the end said...

judge roy and nemo and justice77777, What happen to life in prison.

Are you guys always wrong? HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HEE HEE HEE HEE HEE HEE HEE HEE HEE HEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

near the end said...

pauligirl you need to go back to playing with your dolly's this stuff is way over your head.

neodemes said...

moogie blathered: "Adam...merely partook of the fruit to obey God's first & GREATER commandment of:
"multiply & replenish the earth."

Then he blathered:

"By the way, Adam & Even were so innocent BEFORE THE FALL, that they could not have created any children."

Which is it, oh double-tounge?

As far as being deceived into believing 'ye can be as gods', can you say MOR(M)ON DOCTRINE?

Sure ya can!

Have a nice day!

near the end said...

NEMO/ "BRUCE" Why did you file "BANKRUPTCY" and cheat all those people out of money; you did owe??????????????

sopsback said...

posting the latest bond seem to be an intereising gambit.

chess?? Kings Gambit?


P-K4 P-K4
P-KB4 ??

seems like "do as they do"

if they (govt.) do this, then it must be accepted

if they say that they do not do this process, then maybe k&s got the goods on 'em showing that is exactly what is beeing done woth yo birds shitificates....

govt. mofos been cashin' em in fo $$$$ and the payt. is made in yo blood.

sopsback said...

my only porblem is, if yo go wait fo sec of treasony to pay yo, well he dont pay the pope, let alon he go pay anyone else.

he done even pay wantum all his tillions.

so how yo gonna get molson beer to pay???

mogel007 said...

Nemo said: "As far as being deceived into believing 'ye can be as gods', can you say MOR(M)ON DOCTRINE?"

Auntie (M),here's some "MORE" on doctrine if you can say it. If you can say it, maybe you can believe it or even think it. Sure you can.

If you are deceived into believing that "man" always only pertains to one sex in the context of the scriptures in Genesis, then, you also believe that God created woman in HIS "OWN IMAGE" too. That's even more "moronic" than what I say. If you believe that too, than you've been "tapping" your feet too long and drinking too much "kool aid" yourself.

It makes more sense that there was a "Heavenly Mother" too that was likened for the image for Eve's creation, unless you believe that Adam created Adam & Steve, instead of Adam & Eve.

If there exists a "Heavenly Mother" too, than this would make the plurality of the scriptures to make more sense when the word "us" is used. If there is a "Heavenly Mother" too, than wouldn't it stand to reason that she is also divine, and also a God, or a Godess? Is there ever a Son, without a Mother & a Father? Or maybe you just think God was just lonely and just talking to himself in Gen. 2: 26. Does God have "multiple" personalities and can still be the same "yesterday, today, and forever", an "unchangeable God"? Which is it? Or is God and Jesus in fact, two different, separate and distinct personalities? If they are, there is more than one God: 1 + 1 = 2. If you add the Holy Ghost to the mix, then 1 + 1 + 1 = 3. If therer exists female Gods or Godesses, than you can add more to the mix. Isn't all truth logical, consistent, and doesn't all truth add up?

Genesis 2: 26-27

"And God said, Let US make man in our image, after OUR own likness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him, MALE AND FEMALE, created he them.

Read Proverbs 30: 8- 11 and tell me there isn't a Heavenly Mother. Who is the generation cursing in these scriptures? Isn't it clear that it is no other than Heavenly Father & Heavenly Mother?

"Remove far from me vanity and lies: give me neither poverty nor riches; feed me with food convenient for me:

Lest I be full and DENY THEE, and say, Who is the Lord? or lest I be poor and steal, and take the name of my God in vain.
Accuse not a servant unto HIS MASTER LEST HE CURSE THEE, and thou be found guilty.

There is a generation that curseth THEIR FATHER AND DOTH NOT BLESS THEIR MOTHER."

Since the scripture started off my making it clear that the Father in this context doing the cursing is divine, it follows that the mother is also divine.

Pauligirl said...

mogel007, you are not answering my questions.

You are jumping around and making a lot of "if" suppositions.
Especially concerning Mr. Hansen.
near the end said...
pauligirl you need to go back to playing with your dolly's this stuff is way over your head.

Typical. Personal insult instead of a substantive reply. Do try to do better next time.

mogel007 said...

Hey Bruce, how is your illegal ponzi scheme that you are promoting going these days? Do the Feds know about this illegal program:


So $50.00 is all the guts you're worth and all that you could afford to invest & risk? Your courage & risk taking certainly is renown.

Someone wanted to put a gambling pool together & he says that the bet will be this: Choose which will happen first, your ponzi scheme goes BUST FIRST or the Dorean Group GOES FREE FIRST?

Which do you think it will be oh mighty Bruce?

You know you make me feel so much like a "brother in Christ", I just don't know what to say! Course, you are so much more respectful on Kurt's blog. Maybe an indication of your dual personality? You possibly being "less honest" on Kurt's blog? Ya thunk?

You know with so much diverse opinions even about me, imagine how much more difficult it would be for a Jury to come to any resolution about the guilt of the Dorean Group or even discover their own intent? Another reason why a trial is a waste of time? Everything is so clear to you Bruce isn't it, like "black & white" issues! LOL Maybe the experts on your blog could be subpoened to be witnesses for the trial since you all are so united on your own judgments & have spent so much time studying the real issues. LOL

Maybe you should have included this scripture with your comments below: James 1: 25
Wasn't it you that posted this scripture many times before on Kurt's blog to promote your keen spirituality and your self love? Or maybe you can put this scripture (James 1:25) next to your nonprofit christian organization you are promoting called, "Onward Christian Soldiers"?

James 1: 25 "If any man among you seems to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain."

I'm sure it would help you get more financial contributions for your kitty.

Tell us Bruce,"The expert on crap", how do you really feel:

neodemes wrote:
"For what its worth, Byron, I don't think you are a scam artist.

I don't think you are bright enough for that and that you truly are delusional enough to believe all this cr@p."

Judge Roy Bean retorts:
I would have to respectfully disagree, Neo.

Mr. Gashler knows full well that the cr@p he promotes is illegal but he insists on trying to establish a defense of really believing in it. He's apparently managed to confuse himself about what's known as the Cheek defense and is hoping he can convince a court that it could be construed to his use.
The Honorable Judge Roy Bean

Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 12:57

Nemo continues:
"Yeah, your right Judge.

Even Byron can't be stupid enough to actually believe all that horsesh!t."


The "Professor" gives his 2 cents:
No, I really think he is that stupid."

Nemo confused again:

"It's a tough call.

Which is it, Byron? Are you a total scammer or a total idiot?

It has to be one or the other.

It must be bitter-sweet to realize you aren't important enough to get indicted, Byron.

Or are you?"



~~The Swami~~~ said...

I have an idea that is a win win for many people. When Kurt walks out of jail........we could have Bruce lined up against the prison wall. For a $ 100.00 anyone can throw a pie at Bruce's giant head. This would be great therapy for many, and would be a great way for Bruce to raise money so he could pay money to all those people he screwed with his bankruptcy. Plus he could stop doing the ponzi he's involved with. A win win !!!!!!!!

sopsback said...

mr. hansom, do this meen that i can geet my socal inscrewity funds back? i have '00s of thou in it? how i do this? fil a UCC finagling statement?



sopsback said...

the good/bad of gobalism

bad part is already obvious.

good part is tht now technically when yo walk into coatroom, yo are tecnically walking into a coatroom of international jurisdiction govt. by intl. law, or as some understand, the UCC code/process.

but, if yo stoopid, then the juge will try to bring the issue down to the civil level, and yo must no ho to hole yo ground and not let that happen. yo need to insist on yo rights under intl law which the coatroom is.

now, hang up yo coat.

neodemes said...

There is nothing in Pro. 30 to indicate anything other than mother and father, in the literal sense. You can read in whatever you like, cultist. BTW - verses 2 and 3 are directed at you, personally. (It was referenced as such on a mystical paper plate, sent to earth by the angel macaroni, that has since disappeared.)

Further along there is a reference to the two daughters of a horseleach. Does horseleach refer to God? Obviously, not. No more than mother and father does. Do you have any daughters, moogie? Oh, wait, you are still looking for that special someone, last I heard. Nevermind.

Now, lets go back to Gen. 2:16 again

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

It is clear that man refers, not to all mankind, but to Adam, specifically.

You are, as usual, adding to scripture that which is not there. When necessary, you are forced to refer to extra-biblical mormon BS to solidify your deceptions.

(Take a look back at Proverbs 30 again:
6Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar. Oops!

Moving on...

18 The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him."

19 Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds of the air and all the beasts of the field.
But for Adam no suitable helper was found. 21 So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man's ribs and closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.

Now, let's look at

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Does it say created THEY them? Nope, sure doesn't. And do you suppose God has genitalia, or any sort of sexual identity? Could it be the image of God is the template and the male/female attributes something unique to His creation?

End of theology 101 for today. moogmeister.


neodemes said...

Which is it, Byron? Are you a total scammer or a total idiot?

C'mon moogie, don't keep us in suspense.

For a guy that takes cheap shots at my wife, I don't think you have much to say about bridling tongues, you sniveling worm.

As for the rest of your anonymous cowardly friends or alter-egos, more likely, eat shit and live.

Have a nice day.

sopsback said...

just sooooooooooooooooooo



on this blaaaaaaaaahg.......

can yo stand it????????


sopsback said...

and speekin o love, just where is that southern belle anyway?

she supposed to be comin' aroun' fo a cupful weeks now and aint no site of her?

where are yo kitty??

who yo daddy?

mogel007 said...

Nemo said: Tue Feb 21, 2006 11:02 pm Post subject:


I really need to stop visiting that blog.

Its turned into a total free-for-all.

If Kurt had half a brain he'd delete all the senseless crap to try and at least create the impression that he has some sort of meaningful following other than total lunatics.

If you see me over there, give me a dope smack.

Nemo, where would you like your "dope smack"? I didn't realize that you sold drugs too? Let's face it. You have no "real life". You are an addict, & you can't help but visit this blog and create contention and confusion, and be the god of judgment!!! I think you believe deep down that you are JESUS CHRIST, or in the very least, one of the many false Christs that will appear in these the latter days. Now just admit it!

Nemo the great theologian said: " "It is clear that man refers, not to all mankind, but to Adam, specifically."

And that's why Eve died too? LOL In other words, she's not "under the law", she's just under the "penalty of the law". LOL

God must have not thought too highly of Eve to NOT warn her OF THE CONSEQUENCES OF THE FRUIT & NOT COMMANDING HER NOT TO PARTAKE OF IT and give her full disclosure. Must be a "sexist thing" WITH THE god you worship.

Nemo continues in his confusion: "And do you suppose God has genitalia, or any sort of sexual identity? Could it be the image of God is the template and the male/female attributes something unique to His creation?"

So Nemo, you believe God is a "sexless being" now? Should we address him as our "Eunch in Heaven" now in prayer, instead of as our "Father in Heaven"? Talk about "adding things" or "taking things away". You're the expert at that, Mr. Twist!!!!

The scriptures say that Jesus is in the "express image of the Father". So now you declare that Jesus WAS NOT A MAN WITH SEXUAL GENITALIA TOO? Now you want to even take away the maleness of Jesus Christ himself by demasculinizing him too? If that isn't blasphemy, you're coming awfully close in my opinion.

Try selling that to your cult following that a Holy Man or "Man of Holiness" is one without any sexual genitalia! LOL
Isn't God referred to as "Man of Holiness" "Father", and a host of other names that would show the error of your thinking? Not trying to add anything, just using some simple reason and logic, something that you have little of.

So now, you've made God into a Eunich? I probably mispelled that word, but not any worse than your mispelling of the name of the Angel "Moroni", who by the way, was also a man, a prophet that lived on this American continent & the last survivor of the Nephite race who witnessed the destruction of his people, and wrote about it on these sacred plates of gold, later given to Joseph Smith to translate. This angel is now resurrected and is also an exalted man at that. He hasn't disappeared, he's just not appearing to someone as faithless & confused as you.

You refer to the "Image" of God & you believe you were created in HIS image. If you look in the mirror TO SEE YOUR IMAGE, with your clothes off, DIRECTLY LOOKING AT THE MIRROR, what do you see?

Well, then again........... maybe that's not the best example to prove my point.

mogel007 said...

Nemo said: "For a guy that takes cheap shots at my wife, I don't think you have much to say about bridling tongues, you sniveling worm."
Nemo, I only know you!!! I don't even know your wife, have had no communication with her. She could be the sweetest lady on the whole face of the earth as much as I know about her which is absolutely nothing.

I just thought I'd get your gander up, since you sadistically enjoy that so much yourself!!! I could care less---truly.

Just take your meds (your dope smack) as you call it, and get plenty of rest tonight, and calm down.

Tomorrow is another day to fight. You have something to look forward to. September 2007 should be a very exciting month for you.

sopsback said...

now, speeking of prisoners.....

see, there was these 3 prisoners doing life in prison, when one day the warder came to them and said...

"we are going to play a little game, and the one that wins will be let out of jail, just like the monopley card."

now here is the game they proceeded to play....

now one of these prsoners was totally blind, the other was blind in one eye and the other had normal sight in both eyes.

the warden came in with 5 hats, 2 red and 3 white and proceed to blindfold each prisoner and then place a hat randomly from among the 5 hats on each head and keeping the other 2 hidden from sight of them.

he then proceed to remove the blindfolds from each prisoner and ask them which color hat they had on they head.

now, assume that they can see the other prosners hats on each head, but cannot see the hat upon they own head and cannot reach up to remove it and look.

also, the penalty for guessing wrong is immediate exectuion. assume that no prisoner wasts to die.

now, the first prisoner with normal sight goes first and cannot tell adn does not venture a guess.

the second one blind in one eye is asked and cannot tell the color of the hat on his head.

the third one completey blind is asked and is able to tell the color of his hat and is thus freed.

what color is his hat and how did he know.

simple logic, yet only one person has ever got this right when ive told it out of about 75 times

neodemes said...

Wrong again, moogie.

You don't know me.

Let's keep it that way.

Rave on.

sopsback said...

btw, yo notice that i not preaching anymo.

the time for that (for me ) is over.

whoevber by now has got the HS working fo him is in, and whoesver is not, is not.

as we are now in the "trenches" one must hope that his lesson was learned and learned well.

whatever yo is, yo is
whatever yo aint, yo aint

shortly ALL truth is gong to be revealed as to what peple really are anwyay. wheat and chff begin to be seaparatd

peace of the HS be with yo all....

sopsback said...

hot off press....

btw, check yo latest

wodrld rprots org site.

minutes ago a new post about wantum/world crash

neodemes said...

Try to keep up, Byron.

John 4:

21Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

22Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

You understand neither.

How sad.

sopsback said...


The front page of the Financial Times dated 8th September shows the operative who, next to Vice President Richard B. Cheney, is most responsible for the engulfing global financial crisis: Henry M. Paulson, the most corrupt and deceitful US Treasury Secretary in history. The British newspaper displayed a huge colour photograph of this operative waffling about the latest (uncomfortable) US payroll figure, which was ‘not the kind of number I’d like to see’. The photograph was of particular interest because Paulson has his two thumbs joint together and the three long fingers of either hand touching each other and pointing downwards.


"Henry M. Paulson, the most corrupt and deceitful US Treasury Secretary in history."

at least yo don hav anything bad to say about the guy.

so, like i said, if wantum cant collect fromj this guy, how in H**L is k&s going to collect on they bond form him?????

i mus be missin somenothing.

sopsback said...

In North America, fears of some form of North American Union, based on intelligence disinformation, have taken hold. The Amero is a cynical, diversionary intelligence scam, with a money-making dimension (naturally). And all that gabble about the United States being a corporation, States being corporations, the intrusion of Admiralty Law, and so forth, plus other such diversionary tripe, also represents deliberate intelligence obfuscation – designed to divert attention from the historically unprecedented criminality that is being exposed, and, latterly, from the inevitability and reality of The Wanta Plan, which is the ONLY solution on the Table.


OK. SO now the worldrepots states taht the NAU is a CIA disninfo campain, and also the new proposed currnecy the amero is also CIA disinfo.

ok. so again, the dialectic.

so, now who is the disinfo??

is worldrots really a disinfo?

did north caroling really issue drivers licesnes in the name of the NAU?

IF so, then now worldrots has lost all its crediibilty and is now itsefl a disinfo site.

sopsback said...

nau drivers licesnce fo real??

yo deecide.

take a look at the new logo for nc dl's


SO, it looks like the befit of doubt has to go the nau.

otherwise, why have a state ussued dl with a na continent on it????

so, this beign now true, then the worldgarbage reposts has now lost 25% crediiblity at least

depending on what else they say about he amero etc.\

but no doubt, they themselfs are now to be viewed as a possible disninfo site

~~The Swami~~~ said...

neodemes said...

As for the rest of your anonymous cowardly friends or alter-egos, more likely, eat shit and live.

Wow Neo.....quoting scripture one minute and the next minute you tell us to eat shit. Pure Class My friend..........third class, but class nonetheless. And people wonder why it's hard to get people to try and know the LORD..................well it's because of hypocrites like Neo at your local church. Can you really blame anyone for not wanting to participate? I guess he didn't like the pie in the face idea or having his bankruptcy brought up.

mogel007 said...

Nemo said: "For a guy that takes cheap shots at my wife, I don't think you have much to say about bridling tongues, you sniveling worm."

Cheap shots? I just mentioned that anyone could get divorced, even you. I thought that was a compliment. My or my...... Then if & when you're ever single, God forbid, I can help you find a nice Christian wife. I can even post a few ads for you if you like or even if you don't like. That's the least I could do. Did that strike a cord with you somehow when I mentioned you could be single again too? I mean don't take it the wrong way, it wasn't as if I was prophecying or putting some sort of curse on you. Anythings possible you know.

Wasn't it YOU that posted things about Farrell's wife & their private life and personal finances and assets that upset her so much she went on to your website & KINDLY asked you to cease (although she was very angry) & stay out of their family life? Course I wouldn't have been as sweet as she had I have been in her shoes. Then you were later embarassed by that, you erased that on your website? For someone like yourself that records EVERYTHING said, I find that out of character for you. Did that event not happen? Were those actions of yours a "worm of a different color"? No pun intended. I know seeing past black and white issues is sometimes difficult for you.

You know after reading some things on your website recently, I find there to be many "vile" things said there. I know "vile" is one of your favorite words too, so that's my I specifically used it. Wasn't it the vile words supposedly addressed at you, years ago, that got the property sites website shut down by your "sniveling" (like that word too) threats and childish rants of a potential lawsuit against the owner of that website after giving him a time ultimatum to remove certain posts about you? It's as if you felt your personal reputation was at stake & you felt you were being slandered or hurt. Do you really care that much what other people think, much less people of the Dorean persuasion whom you consider to be morons? You know that's the ego of a narcissist, caring too much what others think and say about you to the point of getting into a frenzy of anger. Course it's OK for you to hurt the reputations of others, isn't it & say & post whatever you want without regards to feelings or even the truth for that matter. No double standard there? Hey, your s*it don't stink at all, does it? After all, you're a "saved Christian," what do you have to worry about, you know you're going to heaven. Everything else really doesn't matter. It's all about you & your saved condition. That's really your theology 101.

Nemo continues: "As for the rest of your anonymous cowardly friends or alter-egos, more likely, eat shit and live."

Nope. I can tell you to your face exactly what I think of you. Don't need an "alter-ego" for that. Couldn't be more wrong there!

Well said, on the "eat sh*t and live". That should be your epitat when the Dorean saga is over. You'll just have to eat it and live.

I guess that proves that you don't have to be a Dorean client to be so interested in "waste products". I know you wondered about that at one time. I think the word "crap" is your all time favorite word now. Wish I had a hundred dollars for each time you've typed that word on this website, or your own website. "Filth in, filth out." Words from the past.
Have a good evening!!! Keeping looking at that image of yours in the mirror now. I'm hoping eventually you'll see something.

justice7777777 said...

Ok, class. Lets shift gears to the ramifications and the odds of the duo coming victorious now that the panamanian fleeing fugitive now brought to justice in the US has apparently plead GUILTY, which means the duo are on their own now?

Any takers, moogie, rear end, swami, anyone?

neodemes said...

Actually, Byron, I missed whatever divorce remarks you made. No great loss, I'm sure.

I was referring to:

"how's your wife, Jezabell, doing these days?"

I'm sure you don't recall most of the crap you spew. Its endless.

near the end said...

Why is Neo so angry?
One minute he's quoteing God's word.

Then he's telling people to EAT SHIT!

WOW; he's a sick man.

Pauligirl that was not an insult.

Your just way over your head on this topic.

Kurt and Scott are way way over you and the class of people you hang around.

Judge Roy Bean said...

They're going to prison for some number of years. A minimum sentence was an option through a pre-trial plea agreement. But their problem in such a settlement is they have to admit guilt.

So why not let it all hang out and gamble at trial on a longer sentence and not have to actually admit guilt? At least Kurt can save face by blaming his conviction and sentence on the Judge and not have to formally admit to the scam. And in terms of what would be harder to live with, he's apparently psychologically off in the ditch far enough that being a martyr for the cause for twenty-plus years won't be any worse than ten-plus. He'll have lots of time to continue pontificating and feeding off the sycophants like Gashler.

In terms of years, there are three possibilities. One, settle and admit guilt (probably the shortest incarceration).
Two, go through with the trial, be convicted then admit guilt and show remorse to obtain the minimum sentence (next shortest incarceration).
Three, go through with the trial, be convicted and refuse to admit guilt or show remorse (maximum sentence).

The trial option could be the best or worst choice for trying to perpetuate their goofy legal mythology. Alsup isn't going to let them wander off into the Wonderland nonsense they've been playing around with, and they can use that to further the martyrdom routine and wail about being victims of the system. On the other hand, rational people who might be tempted to use this kind of nonsense in their real-life problems may come to grips with the fact that it is, indeed, nonsense.

And at what point does Scott decide that Kurt's martyrdom isn't really a sharable experience?

near the end said...

Neo is your Divorce final yet?

I'm sorry about that; but believe me when I say this;

She will be alot better off without you in her life.

I mean have you looked in the mirror lately.

Someone beat you hard with the old Ugly stick .

Bruce just sign over your trailer to your wife and move on.

near the end said...

Neo; Jesus wants you to be nice to everyone. Would Jesus tell someone to EAT SHIT?

near the end said...

Judge beanhead you talk like a little 3rd grade Girl.

near the end said...

justice7777777 How's your wife doing? Yeah I found out.

neodemes said...


You're confusing me with your alter-ego, moogie.

Now run along and be an anonymous coward. Its what you are best at.

sopsback said...

near the end said...

Neo; Jesus wants you to be nice to everyone. Would Jesus tell someone to EAT SHIT?

all sop can is...........


sopsback said...

i got to say that yo guys do a good job of providing the "dialectic"

so taht some will beleive that ME is possible and most wont bleeeve it.

ans thats exacdtly way it shoud be.

i know some layers who read this blag and have siad that its not possible.

it all good.

the truth will come from the HS and lead some to know that mortgages can be laminated.


k&s do they job, but only the HS could of lead some peeple to the DG in the first place.

rember, don bleeve what they tell yo about mortage lamination, it all a bunch of .....what near the end call it.....

oh, yea...s**t!


sopsback said...

an any fool that read what SOP write think that he a total loony toone with a IQ of 47 when SOP iq really 62

justice7777777 said...

near the end said...
justice7777777 How's your wife doing? Yeah I found out.

She's doing just fine, thanks for asking, although I don't see the relevance considering your hero's are in for a serious disappointment.

neodemes said...

You can't disappointment those who cannot understand, justice.

near the end said...

I don't have a Hero. Who said I had a Hero.

Neo you don't like answering my questions do you? Cause there the truth. Truth hurts don't it.

near the end said...

justice77777; What's the relevance of those hero guys disappointment and your wife?

near the end said...

sopsback your funny.

near the end said...

Does anyone no if judge roy is a little boy or a little girl?

near the end said...

Bruce do they teach you to quote Bible verses at your Church and then in the same breath tell someone to eat SHIT?

justice7777777 said...

near the end said...
justice77777; What's the relevance of those hero guys disappointment and your wife?

I think the relevance in any of your posts suggests your need to go back and get a GED. It's quite obvious you are an un-intelligent person.

near the end said...

Wow justice777777 I was thinking the same thing about you.

near the end said...

Justice777777, From your posts I get the feeling all you did was smoke pot all day long.

Your not the sharpest girl out there are you?

near the end said...

Justice7777 does your wife still shave her facial hair?

near the end said...

Hey justice no what's funny you no me and you will never find out who I am.

mogel007 said...

Nemo said: "God is a Spirit"

You've made no point here !!!! I am a Spirit too. You are a Spirit too. But that still doesn't prove that I, you, or God am not even MORE THAN JUST THAT in our essence or personality or Being. My Spirit is clothed by my physical body. My Spirit is eternal, it will never die. Big deal, what point are you making? We were created in HIS image, A SIMPLE CONCEPT THAT YOU STILL DON'T UNDERSTAND. Don't take one scripture and base a complete gospel upon one scripture. Or take parts of the gospel and disregard what you don't recognize.

Please don't make things anymore complicated or mysterious than they really are. God is not some Eunuch, not some sexless creature, some Being that cannot be understood, someone that can't be seen, someone that can't appear to whoever he chooses in person, some impersonal source & incomprehensible mysterious source, like the thing the woman in Kurt's parable was looking for... something Great that she had no concept or experience with or didn't know where it was, what it was, but would know what it was WHEN SHE DISCOVERED AND FOUND IT.

I understand that you must worship the Father IN SPIRIT. I know it's the spiritual mind of my Spirit that recognizes and understands eternal truths, not my physical mind that is not schooled the same way.

Spiritual matters are ONLY spiritually discerned. Big deal! No revelation there for me. I've been schooled in spiritual things all of my life, despite my personal weaknesses and human limitations and many sins. Tell me something I don't know. Inspire me for once Nemo.

Keep your "self righteous" attitude at home where it belongs. If you have something relevant or inspiring, I'll listen. Most of the things you say is just "crap"! Excuse me for using your favorite word again, but I actually like it, because it explains you so well. You're "full of it" from my perspective.

You're wrong about the intent and purpose and credibility of the Dorean Process. Kurt & Scott didn't plan from the very beginning to scam or cheat people & didn't plan NOT TO DELIVER, LIKE YOU'VE DEDICATED YOUR WEBSITE TO THIS THEME. Because of this simple fact, the trial is a farce. They will be victorious in the end, simply because they both humbly seek the WILL & INSTRUCTIONS of the Lord CONCERNING THEIR SITUATION AND FOLLOW THE INSPIRED PLAN being communicated to them by revelation. Just as important, they have the courage, great faith, and rare LISTENING ABILITIES to be divinely directed, which so few men possess. If God is with them, who can be against them? You? Don't believe God is with them? Fine. Get down on your knees and humbly ask, or is that too hard for you? Do that, and get back with me and tell me your answer what God revealed to you, fair enough. You may might to seriously perform at least a 7 day water fast while you're sincerely trying to get God's will in this matter though to prove your sincerity in really wanting to know the answer to this question. If you were so spiritually minded, like you believe you are, you would recognize the Dorean Group as a system that is furthering God's will. How ironic that you are & have been so drawn to these two men & their issues from the very beginning.

You're wrong on your concepts of God, you're wrong on what salvation really is. Your teachings are in essence "cultish". You don't have the spirit of revelation. You don't have the Holy Ghost either. The 12 million people you condemn are not "LOST TO GOD". I am your "spiritual brother" whether you like it or not, or WHETHER YOU recognize it or not. You are in essence the closed minded Spirit. You are in essence, the sad one for you can't even see who you are or how you come across to people WITH YOUR ATTITUDES and JUDGMENTS. That's not my problem, it's yours. That's what's really sad from my perspective.

I'll be waiting for your answer to your prayer to God and what God's answer was to you WHETHER OR NOT THE DOREAN PROCESS IS INSPIRED OF GOD. I would say we both believe what it says in James 1: 5-6. If you don't give us God's answer to your prayer within 10 days, I will assume or conclude that you didn't care enough to sincerely pray or sincerely want to know if your answer doesn't come within that time. It's obvious that you of all people have had plenty of time to study these matters. Let's see how well that you "WORSHIP GOD IN SPIRIT". It's up to you now. We ALL patiently await your response. The notion that "let's see how things play out is CRAP". You've judged them to be scamsters from the very beginning. Now since you've made the issue of "worshipping God in Spirit", & the extreme importance of that, then, you need to now put your money where your mouth is or shut up & now "worship Him in Spirit" and ask the million dollar question and give us all God's response. We all patiently await!!!!! One way or the other, give us YOUR FINAL ANSWER, BASED UPON GOD'S ANSWER TO YOU.

mogel007 said...

Nemo said: I was referring to:

"how's your wife, Jezabell, doing these days?"

What in a name? It's just a word. The meaning and response of the word comes from you, not from me. If you're offended by a word, it's due to your interpretation.

Is your wife's name "Jezabell"? No it is not!!!

Chill out.

Personally and factually speaking, I think your wife is a Saint. She has to be, she's married to you.

mogel007 said...

Nemo said: "I'm sure you don't recall most of the crap you spew. Its endless."

And your memory is BETTER than mine?

I think your narcissism is showing again. Hate to remind you of that though.

mogel007 said...

Nemo said: "Its endless."

How kind of you to say so. "Endless" is one of the name's that defines God. And to think you said that about me. Thank-you for the compliment.

mogel007 said...

Nemo said: "You can't disappointment those who cannot understand, justice."

You don't understand "justice", yet seemed to be very disappointed & even angry, when I used the word "Jezebel".

So you believe, that "unjust people" don't have feelings, like the feeling of disappointment? So the scripture, "Every knee and every tongue shall confess that Jesus is the Christ, (the just and the unjust), this won't be a disappointment to the unjust that denied him prior to this affirmation? You really believe your notion?

"Serial murderers" that don't understand justice, don't expereience emotion of disappointment of their choices in life, when they are convicted of their crimes & sent to life imprisonment for their crimes?

What a "cold" statement you make. It's as if unjust people aren't even human.

mogel007 said...

Nemo said: "You're confusing me with your alter-ego, moogie.

Now run along and be an anonymous coward. Its what you are best at."

With your great researching and posting skills Nemo, I'm sure at some point "that aninimity" you speak of will be made public by you, without regard to sensitivity, feelings, privacy issues, or even disappointment. After all if it's on the internet, it's your property to do with whatever you choose. That's "Nemo's law". You've done it before, and history does repeat itself. Your predictability is one constant everyone can count on and we can all count on you.

mogel007 said...

Judge Bean said: "They're GOING to prison for some number of years."


A minimum sentence was an option through a pre-trial plea agreement. But their problem in such a settlement is they have to admit guilt.


So why not let it all hang out and gamble at trial on a longer sentence and not have to actually admit guilt?


At least Kurt can save face by blaming his conviction and sentence on the Judge and not have to formally admit to the scam.


And in terms of what would be harder to live with, he's apparently psychologically off in the ditch far enough that being a martyr for the cause for twenty-plus years won't be any worse than ten-plus.


He'll have lots of time to continue pontificating and feeding off the sycophants like Gashler.


In terms of years, there are three possibilities. One, settle and admit guilt (probably the shortest incarceration).


Two, go through with the trial, be convicted then admit guilt and show remorse to obtain the minimum sentence (next shortest incarceration).


Three, go through with the trial, be convicted and refuse to admit guilt or show remorse (maximum sentence).


The trial option could be the best or worst choice for trying to perpetuate their goofy legal mythology.


Alsup isn't going to let them wander off into the Wonderland nonsense they've been playing around with, and they can use that to further the martyrdom routine and wail about being victims of the system.


On the other hand, rational people who might be tempted to use this kind of nonsense in their real-life problems may come to grips with the fact that it is, indeed, nonsense.


And at what point does Scott decide that Kurt's martyrdom isn't really a sharable experience?


mogel007 said...

Pauligirl asked: "Now, once again, do you agree that the Fugate case involved a worthless Bill of Exchange and the case is not as advertised on the famguardian site?"

Pauligirl, I honestly don't know. I have more questions than answers in regards to this Fugate case, even now.

It appears that Kurt in his latest instrument sent to the Secretary of the Treasurer that you or Nemo posted, is a similiar type of thing being done, having to do with one's "unlimited exeption" & the HJR law that recognizes this. Course "similiar" is not the "same" thing, so maybe any conclusions by me in regards to these matters would be irrelevant anyway based upon my limited understanding in these specific matters.

Let's see how the Judge reacts to this instrument & what significance this plays out in all of this. Notice the one cent stamp with the trustees signature through the stamp, which in theory, gives the instrument the jurisdiction of the international postal system. This was discussed by the two of us earlier as you remember. Kurt & Scott must believe there is something to all of this if they are using it.

neodemes said...

"Let's see how the Judge reacts to this instrument"

You mean, after he laughs like hell?


neodemes said...

I was addressing justice7s, not referring to "justice", you windbag moron.

~~The Swami~~~ said...

justice7777777 said...
Ok, class. Lets shift gears to the ramifications and the odds of the duo coming victorious now that the panamanian fleeing fugitive now brought to justice in the US has apparently plead GUILTY, which means the duo are on their own now?

Any takers, moogie, rear end, swami, anyone?

OK, if I lose I'll give Justice and Neo my ex wife's phone number. You'll love her. She would make a great sailor - all ports are open if you know what I mean.......and I think you do.(Wink Wink Nudge Nudge);-) If I win, I'll give you my ex wife's phone number. That way you can go through the total hell I went through and torment yourself with the eternal question, "Are 38D's really worth all this sh*t?"

~~The Swami~~~ said...

On a serious note. Neo, if you are going through a divorce............my father told me something that at the time sounded a bit cold, but he was right. "You can always find a woman". Yes....it sounds cold and clashes with the idea of a soulmate, but he was right. A great wife later.........I never forget what he said.

mogel007 said...

Predatory Lending Alert

Literally Millions of Families are at Risk!

2.2 million: Approximate number of families who may lose their homes and up to $164 billion of
accumulated wealth due to foreclosure, based on the conservative estimates of the
Center for Responsible Lending.

1.2 million: Number of foreclosure filings in 2006. This number is up 42 percent from 2005.

700%: Percentage increase in foreclosures from 2005 to 2006.

13%: Percentage of outstanding mortgages accounted for by subprime loans.

20%: Percentage of borrowers surveyed who face foreclosure
due to predatory loan terms and multiple refinances.

1 in 5: Number of subprime borrowers in recent years
who could have qualified for a lower-cost conventional loan.

$150K: Average financial loss of the typical American mortgage holder due to unfair and deceptive mortgage lending schemes, according to the Center for Responsible Lending.

mogel007 said...

Nemo said: "You can't disappointment those who cannot understand"

You know I TOTALLY flunked a test once in school. I didn't understand a thing on the test and I didn't study for it either. Everyone else scored HIGHER than I did. I was made fun of because of this low score & I ALLOWED those people to disappoint me even further. I had no one to compare this disappointment to. After all, I was the lowest of the low. I was so disappointed in myself for this lack of preparation and arrogance thinking I could pass this test without doing what was necessary.

But now I learn today that disappointment was the wrong emotion to feel for this failure or that DISAPPOINTMENT WASN'T the emotion I was REALLY feeling for flunking this test.

Thanks Nemo for straightening me out on this emotionally unresolved issue that's plaqued me all of my life. I don't know what I'd do without you. I feel so much better about myself now and am no longer disappointed in myself due to this scarred and scathing experience I went through. Being at the bottom of the class, is, well it's........ I'm sure you can't understand; you were probably a straight A student in school with your keen insights in life.

mogel007 said...

Justice asked: "Ok, class. Lets shift gears to the ramifications and the odds of the duo coming victorious now that the panamanian fleeing fugitive now BROUGHT TO JUSTICE in the US has apparently plead GUILTY, which means the duo are on their own now?"

Doesn't the "Brought to Justice" say it all, or answer your question? If they are brought to justice, the Dorean Group wins.

The plea has to be accepted first by the prosecution. Does Bill's plea have conditions the prosecution wouldn't sign off on? Or is it a plea arrangment the prosecution shoved into his face & said it was the best deal he was getting, so sign it? What kind of negotiations were involved in this plea arrangement? How do you know that this plea arrangment has taken place? When you use the word "apparently", it doesn't convince me it's true or factual, but if it is, then, so be it.

Too many unknowns to give the best answer right now & especially without not reading the guilty plea yet also makes it difficult to comment on exactly what he's plead guilty to and why. A guilty plea is meaningless without getting into the mind & heart of the individual & understanding their motivations for doing so.

Maybe the ramifications are nothing more than being unwilling to go through a long lengthy trial & not willing to take a chance on getting too many years on a Prison sentence thinking the odds were 95% against him going into the trial already & were just too overwhelming, due to just statistical data. Maybe the ramifications are the belief that he only plead guilty because he felt the truth wouldn't matter in the Court anyway due to the Court being rigged and being so one sided. Maybe health issues were also a consideration. Maybe he believes it's a moot point of pleading guilty anyway, since any plea will be overturned in the end anyway.

Being "on their own" shouldn't change the odds simply because they were prepared to do that in the very beginning. Since the Dorean Group has given full disclosure on everything anyway, it's not like Bill or any other Broker or witness can add anything to the trial of any relevance anyway. I see no real difference between 2 Brokers pleading guilty as opposed to 3 Brokers pleading guilty, so why should the odds change?

If you believe that the truth will prevail, than the odds have been the same from the very beginning.

Course if you truly believe there isn't going to be a trial, then why plead guilty at all on anything?

Bill apparently couldn't get a separate trial, & couldn't get in writing, certain assurances, so maybe that was too disappointing to him to fight further. Just speculation however. That's all anyone can do is speculate when they don't have all of the facts.

mogel007 said...

Nemo studders: I was addressing justice7s, not referring to "justice", you windbag moron.


I'm not the one that has dedicated a WHOLE WEBSITE to the moronic opinions of yours and your kind that talk about nothing except "hot air".

If we are talking anatomy here of the human body, and I'm a "windbag", would it be appropriate to call you the "colon" of the body?

"Crap" seems to be your special word to describe how you feel most of the time about issues & that's all you spew most of the time.

Oh by the way, you mispelled Mormon; it's not spelled "moron", you forgot the M. I know that was an honest mistake on your part though so I take no offense.

Course that makes sense that you weren't referring to justice NOW. Come to think of it, since when have you EVER referred to that subject called "justice"? I guess we have an agreement there.

mogel007 said...

Nemo said: "You mean, after he laughs like hell?"

What are you saying here? Is this a "freudian slip," you comparing Judge Alsup to hell, or some short of hellish behaviour? If you laugh like hell, doesn't that make you some sort of Devil or evil Being by your very nature. "Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks." Wouldn't this type of behaviour and lack of decorum be unbecoming of a righteous Judge? Can a devil ever do good and judge well?

You know when the biggest anti-Doreanite starts using cultish phrases like this, you have to know that the issues are moral in nature and maybe the Devil is in fact judging the Lambs. At least Nemo thinks so.

mogel007 said...

Nemo blabbered: "As far as being deceived into believing 'ye can be as gods',"

Adam & Eve DID become "as the gods" in that they went from an innocent state to a state of being able to understand good and evil, and OPPOSITION IN ALL THINGS, a situation caused by the Fall. No lie there my favorite moron cesspool of confusion.

"And now, if Adam had not transgressed, he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and HAD NO END.
And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, HAVING NO JOY, FOR THEY KNEW NO MISERY; DOING NO GOOD, FOR THEY KNEW NO SIN.

Get it now, my underprivledged friend how they become "as the gods"?

Adam fell that men might be, and men are that they might have joy, the same joy that the gods experience.

The Fall was not a step downward in man's evolution, but a step upwards.

The proof of that is that the Fall was preordained of God, known by him before, and a plan created to redeem man & help him progress further from this event.

And no, man is not "born in sin". Babies are not guilty at birth or responsible for someone else's tresspass. That would be as logical as making me responsible for your ignorance and sins.

near the end said...

Does anyone no why judgeroy and nemo and justice77777 even post here they must be involved in this somehow; unhappy clients I guess.

Guys just be patient.

Nemo you need to take care of your wife and all . Divorce is a serious matter I here it can cost you alot of money.

justice7777777; Thanks for the phone call last night I did'nt think you knew it was me.

All forgiven.

sopsback said...

OK, OK. yo guys did a good job providing the dialectic.....now........want to see waht yo new money look lik??? the amro?


will DG pay in ameros? maybe for those not in dg they can pay they mtg in amros?

so, now, mo and mo worldretorts is looking like a dissedinfo site??

mogel007 said...

Nemo said: (It was referenced as such on a mystical paper plate, sent to earth by the angel macaroni, that has since disappeared.)
Talk about referencing things that don't exist or aren't relevant or material. I think you are smoking too much "macaroni" yourself! LOL

The golden plates were not "paper". What was in these plates after the translation became what is known as the Book of Mormon. No where in the Book does it reference Heavenly Mother, but you wouldn't know that anyway, because you haven't read the Book. You criticize something YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT. Typical of your ignorant response, you judge something you haven't even read, hence your opinion carries no weight at all.

If you are being sarcastic, at least make your sarcasm contain truth, or have it based upon truth, otherwise, you're not even funny. Instead of laughing WITH YOU, the intelligent people, will be laughing AT YOU.

The golden plates WERE NOT SENT TO EARTH. They were already in the earth, buried by the prophet Moroni before he died, who later appeared to Joseph Smith after he was a resurrected Man (Angel). The angel told him where he buried these plates. Even your ignorance of history that is claimed in faith, is appalling. If you want to criticize something, at least learn enough so you don't look like the ass that you are.

And nothing has "disappeared" as you say. Just because something is no longer available for inspection, doesn't mean it doesn't exist even now or wasn't verified or validated in Joseph Smith's day.

12 honorable & unimpeachable men witnessed the golden plates, held them, & turned the pages & witnessed under oath as to their authenticity & an angel of God appeared to 3 of them & commanded them to bear witness to the authenticity of the plates. NONE of the witnessess ever faltered in their mortal life of this great testimony, even under GREAT PERSECUTION AND SORROW. Only 2 or 3 witnesses is required by law or even by God to prove something. There's overwhelming proof!!!!

But that isn't the issue. The issue is your IGNORANCE AGAIN, pretending to be an authority on a subject you know nothing about & CAN'T EVEN GET THE FACTS STRAIGHT.

mogel007 said...

"Does anyone no why judgeroy and nemo and justice77777 even post here they must be involved in this somehow; unhappy clients I guess"

Judge Roy Bean & Nemo AREN'T CLIENTS. They've been negative of the process since day one. Nemo's greatest risk in life is spending $50.00 on an illegal ponzi scheme, so it's not reasonable to see him spending $3,000 or more for a process, even assuming he ever had that much money. Judge Roy Bean likes to critize most everyone & everything & he believes most things are scams and most people are liars & most people have the worst of intents. Don't believe that statement, just go to his website & see all "the scams" he's listed. I think even Judge Roy Bean would have a tough time even defining the word, "scam". He's probably been cheated & abused most of his life & has little faith in mankind. He's too critical & closed minded to ever have considered a process like the Dorean Process.

Justice7777 is a client simply because he knows too much, and knows things that only a well schooled client could know, and other reasons, and yes, he's unhappy, but isn't "unhappiness" generally just a temporary state? Aren't me all the "master of our domain" and choose how we feel and happiness is a choice based upon our decisions & our mental framework? Does unhappiness always need to be a permanent state?

near the end said...

Mogel; You really made him look like an ASS.

If he has the guts to post after that one he'll say something short and stupid or he'll try and make up something that will try to seem smart and make it really long.

Watch you'll see!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But I do feel a little bad for him; with his Divorce and all!!!

Tough luck man I really do hope it works out for ya both.

neodemes said...

Golly Sox! What SHALL I DO?

Do I have the guts to post? Will it be long or short?


tough call...

The Arrest Records of Joseph Smith from 1826 to 1830 are Rediscovered and Given to the Mormon Church.
“Joseph Smith's Arrest Record Surfaces In New York” excerpt:

…``It is not a small thing. These are important papers to a major religion,'' she said. ``It's a piece of the historical puzzle that was missing for nearly 35 years.'' …

… The documents include arrest warrants, court transcripts and legal bills from four separate charges filed against Smith. Storms said the cases involved Smith's involvement in glass looking, or treasure seeking, and being a disorderly person. …

…One of the documents includes a bill from then-South Bainbridge Justice Albert Neely to the county for services rendered. Included in the bill is a $2.68 charge for fees in examining the case of ``Joseph Smith, the glass looker.''

This is from an article Sep. 16th, 2005. Source: http://kutv.com/topstories/local_story


Re: Joe Smith's Arrest Records


Sep 16 16:33



Dr. Nibley was able to maintain plausible deniability when he made this statement in 1961. I wonder what he would say today if he were alive?

BTW, what an appropriate name for his book...The Myth Makers!

Taken from the Tanner's website:

"The noted Mormon apologist Hugh Nibley published a book in which this statement appeared: "...if this court record is authentic it is the most damning evidence in existence against Joseph Smith." (The Myth Makers, 1961, page 142) On the same page we read that such a court record would be "the most devastating blow to Smith ever delivered." Because he could see the serious implications of the matter, Dr. Nibley tried in every way possible to destroy the idea that the court record was an authentic document."


Joseph Smith's arrest record on glass-looking charges--and Hugh Nibley's warnings about their serious nature, if proven true ( and they are now proven true.)


Sep 17, 2005


steve benson

What is particularly damning about these latest press revelations is that they further validate the devastating nature of the crimes that Smith committed--as, in fact, admitted by Mormonism's historically pre-eminent apologist and water carrier, Hugh Nibley.

In 1961, Nibley authored a book entitled The Mythmakers, in which he ventured to boldly debunk assertions that Joseph Smith had committed, or had been arrested for, the crime of "glass-looking." Nibley (in words he probably later wished he could retract) went so far as to declare that if, in fact, Smith was actually proven guilty of such nefarious activity, it would constitute the most damning blow that could be imagined to Smith's claim of divine prophetship.

Derick S. Hartshorn, in his work, Bearing the Testimony of Truth, reviews the history of apologetic denials uttered by Mormonism's stoutest defenders--and then compares those desperate defenses to the actual evidence found--evidence that cuts Smith off at the knees.

Under the sub-section, Guilty! Next Case!, Hartshorn exposes the serious nature of the charges against Smith and how they have plunged a dagger into the heart of Smith's claims to divine guidance:

"It was charged that Joseph Smith was accused and found guilt of parting a local farmer from his money in a less than honest scheme, commonly known as 'money-digging' or 'glass-looking.' It was reported to have been an activity that brought him rebuke from his soon-to-be father-in-law, Isaac Hale. It is also historically recorded that he was removed from membership in a local Methodist church because of the activity and trial results.

"Joseph Smith skims over the specific event leading to the trial in the Pearl of Great Price, explaining that he was only a day worker for the man so engaged and not personally involved.

"Mormon writers have continually challenged its doubters to find the records (seemingly lost) and prove Joseph Smith a liar or stop the attacks. Mormon writer Hugh Nibley, the most prolific defender of the Mormon faith, used almost 20 pages in his book, The Mythmakers, in an attempt to discredit this 'alleged' court trial. On page 142 we find:

"'. . . If this court record is authentic it is the most damning evidence in existence against Joseph Smith' and would be 'the most devastating blow to Smith ever delivered.' [emphasis added]

"Of course, when that was first published back in 1961, Dr. Nibley undoubtedly felt that after 130 years no such record would turn up in 1971. Once again, the actual evidence, which the Mormon Church had denied ever existed came to light in 1971. You can read about how it was discovered as well as the relevance of other historical documents of that time that Joseph used a 'seer' stone to find money, etc. in the 54=page brochure 'Joseph Smith’s Bainbridge, N.Y., Court Trials.'

"One might wonder why this should be cause for concern among investigators of Mormonism. The fact is the up to then, the Mormon Leaders had denied that there WAS such a trial. Indeed, they claim that the story of Joseph’s arrest was a 'fabrication of unknown authorship and never in a court record at all.'

"The charge that Joseph was known to hunt treasure with 'peep' or 'seer' stones, etc., was serious enough that Mormon scholar Francis W. Kirkham stated that if the court record could be found, it would show that the Mormon Church was false:

"'Careful study of all facts regarding this alleged confession of Joseph Smith in a court of law that he had used a seer stone to find hidden treasure for purposes of fraud, must come to the conclusion that no such record was ever made, and therefore, is not in existence . . .

"'If any evidence had been in existence that Joseph Smith had used a seer stone for fraud and deception, and especially had he made this confession in a court of law as early as 1826, or four years before the Book of Mormon was printed, and this confession was in a court record, it would have been impossible for him to have organized the restored Church.'

"Later, in the same book, Mr. Kirkham states:

"'. . . [I]f a court record could be identified, and if it contained a confession by Joseph Smith which revealed him to be a poor, ignorant, deluded, and superstitious person unable himself to write a book of any consequence, and whose Church could not endure because it attracted only similar persons of low mentality if such a court record confession could be identified and proved, then it follows that his believers must deny his claimed divine guidance which led them to follow him. . . . How could he be a prophet of God, the leader of the Restored Church to these tens of thousands, if he had been superstitious fraud which the pages from a book declared he confessed to be? . . . '

"Well, in spite of 140 years of silence, the records did surface. Rev. Wesley Walters discovered the documents in the basement of the Chenango County, New York, jailhouse at Norwich, N.Y. in 1971. The records, affidavits, and other data show conclusively that Joseph Smith was arrested, went to trial, was found guilty as an imposter in the Stowell matter of "glass-looking." It is not a matter of debate, opinion or religious preference. It is a proven historical fact.

"Initially Mormons denied that Joseph ever participated in 'money-digging' activities, saying that would invalidate his claim as a prophet. Now that indisputable evidence confirms that Joseph was a convicted 'money- digger' Mormons have taken a 'so what' attitude. At least one says, now that the evidence proves that Joseph was a 'money-digger' that it really doesn’t matter. (What could a BYU professor say?) Mormon scholar Marvin Hill says:

"'There may be little doubt now, as I have indicated elsewhere, that Joseph Smith was brought to trial in 1826 on a charge, not exactly clear, associated with money digging.' [Fawn] Brodie’s thesis that the prophet grew from necromancer to prophet assumes that the two were mutually exclusive, that if Smith were a money-digger he could not have been religiously sincere.

'This does not necessarily follow. Many believers active in their churches, were money-diggers in New England and western New York in this period. Few contemporaries regard these money-diggers as irreligious, only implying so if their religious views seemed too radical . . . For the historian interested in Joseph Smith the man, it does not seem incongruous for him to have hunted for treasure with a seer stone and then to use with full faith to receive revelations from the Lord.'

"Marvin Hill’s appraisal of the treasure seeking activities make it appear that contemporaries of Joseph Smith treated this enterprise with a casual air. One such contemporary that was closer to Joseph than most, could hardly disguise his disdain. This was Isaac Hale, father of the girl that Joseph would later elope with. In an affidavit signed by Hale and published in the Susquehanna Register, May 1, 1834, Joseph’s father-in-law said:

"'I first became acquainted with Joseph Smith, Jr. in November, 1825. He was at that time in the employ of a set of men who were called ‘money diggers’; and his occupation was that of seeing, or pretending to see by what means of a stone placed in his hat, and his hat closed over his face. In this way he pretended to discover minerals and hidden treasure.

"'Smith and his father, with several other money-diggers boarded at my house while they were employed in digging for a mine that they supposed had been opened and worked by the Spaniards. Young Smith made several visits at my house, and at length asked my consent to his marrying my daughter Emma. This I refused . . . [H]e was a stranger, and followed a business that I could not approve. . . . Smith stated to me, that he had given up what he called "glass-looking," and that he expected to work hard for a living . . .

"'Soon after this, I was informed that they had brought a wonderful book of plates down with them . . . The manner in which he pretended to read and interpret, was the same as when he looked for the money-diggers, with the stone in his hat, and his hat over his face, while the Book of Plates were at the same time hid in the woods.'"



Re: Nibley & Kirkham


Sep 17 11:07



Thanks Steve. I have done quite a bit of reading about the "glass-looking" but I wasn't aware of the "quotes" by Nibley and Kirkham regarding this.

Of course it always gets explained away by current apologists, but, how long can they continue that?

It just doesn't pass the "smell test".



You know, if TSCC would be honest about everyone's imperfections


Sep 17 14:42


Devil's Advocate

If they would be honest enough to admit that yes, Joe tried to use his new-found powers for purposes other than God's work and got in trouble for it, wouldn't that be a better example than to falsely claim that Joe never did such a thing, that he was perfect as a prophet, yadda yadda yadda? Shoot, any of us might do the same thing ourselves. If they were honest and accepting of people's error-prone human nature, wouldn't they be more God-like? Brig's bank failure is proven - for now at least (will TSCC be trying to cover that up in the future??) so why not use it to reassure people that yes, we are all human and yes, we do forgive, God forgives --- wait! I'm painting a picture of a church that is God-like, not the one we have all rebuke on a near-daily basis! Fools!! All they had to do was be honest about the past mistakes of everyone, instead of holding Joe up as a god to be worshipped! But their lies, their increasingly unGod-like behavior will catch up to them one day, mark my words. We will see them implode because just like they say, any house built on sand cannot last, and their lies upon lies is more and more sand instead of their firm foundation. They will fall, I just hope they don't take any more of my loved ones down with them when they crash.


Re: Joe Smith's Arrest Records


Sep 15 16:13



It is fun to read news like this and then READ FAIRS analysis, trying to suggest that these documents do no exist, there defense becomes their condemnation, their inability to accept truth and deny the facts continues to fly in the face of intellectuals:



Ya know, I could write an exhaustive rebuttal to this FAIR article.....


Sep 15 18:48


Randy J.

.....if I had the time and energy to do so at present. But I want to comment on one statement that amused me:

"It will be noticed with interest, that although Bishop Tuttle and others had access to the Pearsall account for several years it was not published until after her death. That combined with the fact that the torn leaves were never allowed to be examined, would cast some doubt on the completeness or accuracy of that which was published."

Let's apply this Mopologist's argument against the authenticity of the Pearsall account to the production of the Book of Mormon.

Notice any funny similarities? :-)


Yeah, and this part is hilarious!...


Sep 16 15:32


Shiner Bock

"We need to be careful that we examine the life of Joseph Smith from the perspective of his environment. We can read the following from the Palmyra Herald, July 24, 1822, when Joseph was 16 years old.

"digging for money hid in the earth is a very common thing and in this state it is even considered as honorable and profitable employment"

"One gentleman...digging...ten to twelve years, found a sufficient quantity of money to build him a commodious house.

"another...dug up...fifty thousand dollars!"

You can imagine how you would respond to this type of information if you were 16 at the time and read this in the newspaper? You would likely find yourself out there digging as other fairly respectable people were doing. Let's think about how Joseph Smith fits into the 1825 timeframe. That is the key, to not put our environment on Joseph Smith, but to look at Joseph Smith in his own environment."

Yet Smith said in his history that he was NOT a treasure digger like the above would suggest.


I'm surprised to see KUTV reporting on this since they are a tool of the mormon church. .. n/t


KSL is the one owned by the Morg, but....


Sep 15 17:36



KUTV did present it so that members of the Morg could dismiss it. At the beginning of the TV segment, they very briefly mentioned it was in the 1820s.

At the end of the TV segment they gave the Morg spin of how JS was killed by an "anti-Mormon mob" and said he was "arrested many times in connection with the Mormon Church." [paraphrase] They way they presented it, it came across that Smith's arrest for glass looking was in regard to "anti-Mormons" out to get him. There was NO Mormon Church when he was convicted of "glass looking."

I e-mailed KUTV that it was very dishonest the way they presented it, implying that his charge of glass looking was by "anti-Mormons", when there was no Mormon Church when he was convicted.

You can say that about all the TV stations, radio stations, and newspapers in UT. What else is new? KSL is one outright owned by the Morg.


I can settle this


Sep 15 18:34



KUTV walks a fine line in trying to please the Mormons while serving the non-Mormons. It would be expected for Channels 2 and 4 to have stories that are not entirely complementary to the LDS Church without being too offensive. After all, many Mormons look to the Salt Lake Tribune for any real news about the Church, so also it is expected that 2 news and 4 news will be somewhat objective without losing too many ratings points. All the Mormons watch Channel 5 anyway, so I don't know if it makes any difference.


Was this before or after his First Vision?


Sep 15 19:40



I recall reading somewhere that Joseph claimed to have had his vision in 1820? Is that correct?


Good Question, M31


Sep 16 14:50



Let's see, Smith was born in 1805 as I recall and he could would have been 14 for all of 1820 until his birthday in December. According to the Official LDS church sanctioned First Vision story, the First Vision most likely occurred in 1820.

From the link in bnaur's post, the trial took place on March 20, 1826 and JS would have been 20 years old. The trial would have happened after the First Vision. I think even the alternate version would place this trial for glasslooking after the First Vision, it's just a matter of how long after.

Can anyone post what was happening in official church history in the Spring of 1826? Joseph Smith was visiting the gold plates but had not yet collected them? It would be interesting to see what they say Joseph was doing when he was arrested for fortune-telling.


That's exactly the point....


Sep 16 15:13


Randy J.

>Can anyone post what was happening in official church history in the Spring of 1826? Joseph Smith was visiting the gold plates but had not yet collected them?

>It would be interesting to see what they say Joseph was doing when he was arrested for fortune-telling.

That's the point: There was NOTHING happening in "church history" in the spring of 1825. While post-hoc accounts and apologetics say that Smith spent that time farming, reading the Bible, and being mentored by God and angels, the actual historical documentation says that he was being hauled into court for running his "peep-stoning" scam.

As I've noted many times, the earliest documented accounts from anyone outside the Smith family which reported any claims about heavenly visions and golden plates originated around the summer of 1827---more than a year AFTER Smith's embarrassing "glass-looking" court hearing of March 1826. In that hearing, Smith admitted that his "peep-stoning" practice was all a fraud, and he promised the judge that he would give it up and do honest work. The judge let Smith off based on that promise.

Smith then eloped with Emma Hale against her father's wishes. When they returned after being married, Isaac Hale begrudgingly let them live in an old cabin on his property. But then just a few months later, Smith began spinning his yarn about getting the golden plates from an angel, and claiming that he could translate them via the same "peep-stoning" malarkey THAT HE HAD ALREADY ADMITTED WAS A FRAUD.

"The manner in which he pretended to read and interpret was the same manner as when he looked for the money-diggers, with the stone in his hat, while the book of plates were at the same time hid in the woods."---Isaac Hale affidavit, May 1834.

Read more details at



The big lie.....


Sep 15 19:51



... is that they don't explain that "glass-looking" refers to his peep stones, the same ones he used to "translate" the BOM. Any real news organization would have reported that connection. But, then again.... let't keep the faithful ignorant of history that is not helpful. Thanks KUTV for lying for the Lord as usual, you kiss-a$$, suck-ups.


Why did they give the documents to the LDS church ????


Sep 16 14:57



From the KUTV link: >>Chenango County Historian Dale Storms said she turned over the newly found documents to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which is based in Salt Lake City.<<

Any guesses why the Chenango County Historian would give up a piece of NY history to TSCC?

I suppose no one will see them again without "proper" clearance from the Brethren. They now slip into the realm of deniability since they won't be easily accessible to whomever wants to see them.


Re: Joe Smith's Arrest Records


Sep 16 15:09


No Moniker

From the Tanner site FYI:


If this were just a case that involved a young man getting into trouble with the law, Mormon critics would be foolish to spend their time rehashing the story. Most people would allow Joseph Smith the right to make a few youthful mistakes without maintaining that it would seriously affect his role as a prophet. The issue, however, is much more serious than just the transgression of an early New York law which many today would regard as antiquated. What is involved here is the question of whether Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God or merely a man entangled in occultic practices. The implications of this matter are very serious indeed. Once we accept the validity of the documents concerning Joseph Smith's trouble with the law, we are forced to admit that he was engaging in magical practices at the very time he claimed he was being tutored by the Angel Moroni to receive the gold plates of the Book of Mormon.


Deja Vu


Sep 16 15:26



The documents which Wesley Walters found thirty years or so ago get lost and no one knows where they are. Then they get found again and the world doesn't find out about it until they are given to the LDS church.

The Papyri that JS got with the mummies becomes lost and no one knows where they are. Then they get found again and the world doesn't find out about it until they are given to the LDS church.

Recovery from Mormonism - The Mormon Church www.exmormon.org

neodemes said...

Stories of Former Mormons

Note The most recent stories - are located at Updates. There is a biography board at Exmobb_biography which has over 450 additional stories as of Jan 2006. There are over 600 personal accounts of people leaving Mormonism on this site. The Short Topics section has an additional 430 topics on Mormonism.

If you are planning on reading only one or two stories, consider stories #44, #50, #56 or #125. #44 is a good summary of experiences and has an atheist perspective. #50 has extensive documentation and has a Christian perspective. #56 is on Mormon women suffering from depression which is sadly common place in the Mormon church. #125 is an excellent account of m-DNA and the Book of Mormon. All the stories together here have helped many people leave Mormonism.

0. This is my story of why I left Mormonism. - It contains information on the Book of Mormon, Book of Abraham, archeology and many other issues. I did not leave because my feelings were hurt or because of sin. I left Mormonism because I discovered the fact that the church is not what it claims to be. Contains links to documentation.

* 1 An ex-Mormon with an active Mormon history web site. - His family is harassed and he signs off the Internet. This gives valuable insight to Mormon zealots though I admit they do not always represent the majority of Mormons. 12/17/95

* 2 A grandfather today. - He chose to live by reason, not by the type of faith that was required in the Mormon church..

* 3 A convert married to a returned missionary. - The Mormon concept of God helped to lead her out after visiting the temple.

* 4 A young woman in Idaho leaves Mormonism. - This young woman became a Christian and the pastor of her new church is also a former Mormon.

* 5 Two short stories - A woman discusses women in Mormonism and a former Bishop tells his story

* 6 A lifetime member and former Relief Society President - A former BYU student and her experiences with Mormonism and is now in her 40s.

* 7 A BYU student leaves Mormonism - A short story of a young man growing up in Mormonism and is now an atheist.

* 8 He learned from church approved literature the truth - - He learned as a young man it was a fraud using only church history materials - not "anti-Mormon" literature.

* 10 After visiting the temple and serving a mission - - Now as a father he found many historical "facts" to be untrue and found that many doctrines to have "evolved" over time rather than being "restored" as the church claims.

* 11 She is studying Judaism - - I count myself fortunate not to have one of those husbands who runs away to find a nice "Molly Mormon" because the current wife doesn't continue buying into the LDS belief system.... It seems so ironic to me that my marriage was worst when we were both devout members of the church... our marriage is finally becoming happier and healthier.

* 12 A resignation letter to the church - - He left Mormonism in 1993 after years of dedication to the church and is now a Christian.

* 14 A woman who left Mormonism 18 years ago - - She left to give herself dignity. A short but powerful story.

* 15 A convert in 1995 and already leaving Mormonism - - She gives an incredibly accurate description of Mormonism that normally takes years of membership to see.

* 18 He left Mormonism while serving a mission - - He now refers to himself as a "post-Mormon" and has helped others at BYU and Berkeley to obtain the same status.

* 19 This is an excellent story on being a Mormon missionary - - This is one of the longer stories here and gives a great account of serving a mission in Equador. The author also writes on his "post-Mormon" life.

* 20 This is from a descendant of the followers of Brigham Young - - The author writes, "Leaving Mormonism is an excruciating personal decision not unlike losing citizenship in the country of your intellectual and spiritual heritage."

* 21 The story of a young man growing up in Mormonism - In his early 20's he discovers the deceit of Mormonism and becomes a Christian.

* 22 Four short stories from women - - They write about their Mormon experiences and the pain involved in leaving Mormonism.

* 23 A former missionary to Sweden - - He had a virtually identical experience with Spencer W. Kimball as I had. Kimball admits he had no special witness. The author reflects on his "post-Mormon" life. Interesting style of writing.

* 24 A former missionary to Japan and still a Mormon - - This person is a Harvard Medical School student and writes, "I do, however, believe in reason and the fact that the Mormon Church puts this aside really bothers me."

* 25 Life long members and temple workers - - They raised their children to adulthood in Mormonism and discovered what Mormonism actually is long after the children had grown up and left home. The adult children still believe in Mormonism.

* 26 An interesting story and observation - - The "Investment Paradigm" (IP) predicts the typical Mormon's reaction to "real world facts" based on his or her emotional investment in Mormon theology.

* 27 A short story on leaving - - The author writes, "I know that this road has been traveled my others and I also know that it's a tough road to travel. I keep in high regards the years that I was in the church. I hold no anger toward anyone."

* 28 A convert in Japan and leaving Mormonism years later - - The author writes, "In leaving Mormonism I realized that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints has no patent on the after life and what my rewards and punishments will be."

* 29 A 5th generation Mormon and young woman - - The author writes, "The times I had asked questions to Bishops, they were brushed aside. I was never given answers. It was a relief to finally be able to piece things together..."

* 30 An experience with a Mormon 'testimony' - - A young woman writes, "My most painful Mormon experience was learning that having faith in something does not necessarily make it true."

* 31 A couple who recently left Mormonism - - The couple writes, "The Mormon theology is so completely judgmental, that through direct or indirect teaching, members believe that they are more blessed (therefore better) than anyone who is not a member."

* 32 A young man and woman write about their experiences - - The first story is about a young man and his reception when he came home early from his mission. The second story is about a young woman who was a "golden" prospect and became a Mormon convert.

* 33 A family just discovers what Mormonism really is - - This is in May of 1996. The wife was always a member and she had converted her husband. He had been an Elder's Quorum President. The Internet gave them an opportunity to learn.

* 34 A Mormon who no longer believes - - A short note explaining why he continues to be involved with Mormonism. Many Mormons are similar to him in that they stay active for the sake of their families.

* 35 A Mormon who picks what he wants to believe in - - He writes, "My "recovery" is different from most of your contributors, but I don't condemn any Mormon who has to leave in order to "recover". It is not easy being part of a cover-up church."

* 36 Why it is so difficult to leave - - He writes, "I recently needed to know I wasn't alone when my wife and I woke up.... I won't give you another life travel log, but thought I'd instead demonstrate why I think it is so difficult to leave the Mormon faith."

* 37 Has it been easy? - No - - "We didn't leave the church because of sin in our lives; we left because we could no longer believe, support, or condone the doctrine, the policies, and the practices of the Mormon Church. Our lives have been full and rewarding contrary to what the Church teaches about all the bad things that will happen if a member leaves the Church."

* 38 A former missionary to France - - "I asked God every possible question. Perhaps we will laugh about it now, but back in 1982 I asked God about dinosaurs, about evolution.... I asked God many questions about more ordinary aspects of LDS doctrine as well."

* 39 He looks forward to learning - - "Although our stories are different, the one thing that we all hold in common is a devotion to truth, even if it means significantly altering our lives, disrupting relationships and taking a plunge into the great, wide unknown."

* 40 Two short stories of former Mormons - - One talks about being a pagan and why. The second story is from a grandmother on being an atheist.

* 41 A lifelong member, father and former missionary - - "I feel free now, free from the box, free from believing that I am right and that everyone else is wrong."
* 42 A young woman convert, BYU student, then missionary - - "It saddens me to realize that throughout my entire journey in Mormonism I was surrounded by others suffering like me. We were all so well conditioned in Mormonism that we would not, could not, reveal our doubts to each other..."

* 43 A graduate of MIT and now a young wife - - "I am still learning not to be afraid of life... I grew up thinking that God wouldn't hear your prayers if you didn't pray the Mormon way. It's only recently that I see that isn't true."

* 44 A stereotypical Mormon and now a successful business leader - - He writes an incredible essay on his life as a Mormon. A stereotypical Mormon, former missionary and married in the Mormon temple, discovers God to be the equivalent of a Cosmic Terrorist. An excellent summary.

* 45 A "Wedding" in the Mormon Temple - - She writes a moving experience of being married in the Mormon temple from which her non-member parents were excluded. This is an excellent and sad account of a Mormon temple experience.

* 46 A Mormon for 31 years - - "I loved reading everything on Joseph Smith and gave firesides to the youth, giving spiritual and funny events of his life. I even named my first born son after the prophet Joseph."

* 47 The church wants to be viewed as mainstream - - "The LDS church is packaged nicely, very nicely. ...very homogeneous.... Most of the chapels have a similar look and feel. Even the lettering used within the church must conform to standards... It works hard on its image."

* 48 The wife of story #46 tells about her experiences - - She, along with her 4 children, left Mormonism. She writes, 'We had a stake president tell us, "There isn't a damn thing true about the church, but it's the best place to raise a family"...'

* 49 A warning to those about to join Mormonism - - "Personal experiences in the LDS Church have demonstrated to me both subtle, and overt forms of mental control. Searching out the facts has led me to witness one of the greatest cover-ups of all time."

* 50 An LDS church translator for 15 years - - She and her husband write about their years as Mormons and document in great detail their reasons for leaving Mormonism after years of devotion to the organization. Lots of documentation.

* 51 A husband and wife from 8 generations of Mormons - - He and his wife write about why they left Mormonism. In addition to their stories, examples of how to write letters to family and to the church are included. Good reading if you come from a long line of Mormons.

* 52 He left Mormonism when he was a missionary - - "The more I read from the church history, the worse I felt. The more I studied, thought and prayed, the more problems I found with the church and what it claimed to be. It became harder and harder for me to go out and teach."

* 53 She lost 2 of her adult daughters when she left - - She writes, "It's like I have been written out of their lives. They are both still very active in the LDS religion. I gave up a lot to follow my convictions."

* 54 A convert to Mormonism during one of life's transitions - - "During the initial period of my separation and divorce, I turned in desperation to the Bible for some type of guidance, because I was scared...It was right about that time that the missionaries came to my door."

* 55 A convert to Mormonism and her return to Christianity - - After her family's conversion to Mormonism she writes, "It's like a cloud came over me and blocked the 'sunshine' of Jesus' love that I had in my life before the Mormon church... I realize that I had been a prisoner... and that now, after 21 years, I am free..."

* 56 Mormon women and depression - - She writes, "I have realized that I have so much potential, and that I will not be spending eternity with my husband's other wives, being eternally pregnant... I'm certain than depression among women in the LDS church is rampant, and I feel that being free of the burden of constant pain and guilt will be one of the greatest accomplishments of my life."
* 57 A Student at BYU - Winter 1997 - - "I realized that testimonies, no matter how strong or seemingly undeniable, are not unique to one system of beliefs. People disagree about what they actually do represent, but I think that "the spirit" is absolutely and completely created and controlled by the individual.."

* 58 A young married man and returned missionary - - "So I guess my question is, why should a Mormon even bother to pray? A Mormon already has all the answers... And if you should choose to pray about an issue, and find that your answer is not in line with what the church teaches, you can rest assured that it is you who is wrong."

* 59 A non-LDS mother writes about her son's experience - - This mother writes about her son who was a convert to Mormonism. She says, "Imagine raising a child for 26 years and being banned from the marriage ceremony!! There were no plans to make, no communication with the bride or her family, no participation, no joy."

* 60 A Finn now living in the US relates his life's experience - - He is former missionary. "It's difficult to convey how different I feel today compared to earlier in life. I feel much more comfortable and content with my life. I do not feel in the least like there is something missing, as, in some ways, I did back then. I enjoy life."

* 61 Sexual abuse by local Mormon leaders - - Sadly this is very common in Mormonism. The LDS church is adept at hiding incidents like those told in this story to maintain its public image. Few Mormons realize how common this is. There are now resources available for women who have suffered abuse from LDS religious leaders.

* 62 A former missionary to Japan - - He is still a Mormon. "Mormon life (meetings, programs, scouts, tithing, administration, superiority) personally, has left me unfulfilled. Service, teaching, friendship, raising a good family, etc., have been fulfilling. I no longer believe that Mormonism has a patent on these things."

* 63 A molecular biologist at BYU - - He writes about his Mormon life and also his work at BYU. "I worked in a laboratory at BYU (which was funded in part by FARMS) where I isolated and sequenced human DNA segments. Molecular biology, without exception, confirms the anthropological findings that the American Indians are an Asian population--absolutely not Semitic [Jewish]!"

* 64 A professional writer and a scholar - - He writes about LDS public relations, Chinese leaders and the Mormon hierarchy and other subjects. He states, "I was astonished at the lengths to which LDS officials would go, and the depths to which they would descend, in order to deal with a minor public relations problem. This is the 'one true church'?"

* 65 A young man who looks at his upbringing - - Fear of eternal failure and separation from one's family are the most common tools used by the church to keep people in line. It play's on a child's sense of dependency on his or her parents and community, causing a sense of separation anxiety at the thought of going against the system. In fact, it's almost unimaginable to think of leaving.

* 66 He left Mormonism in 1958 - - "There were no black people in the church (at least none were visible). Garments were in a single piece. The temple endowment ceremony still had the death penalties, the minister, the five points of fellowship. The Book of Abraham papyrus scrolls were still missing... Why, after all these years, would I still be concerned about Mormonism?"

* 67 A family divided due to Mormonism - - "There is no open, free exchange of ideas in this [Mormon] family... You don't share your personal beliefs, fears, doubts, dreams, concepts, theories, discoveries, attitudes, opinions, and views because it will just upset mom and dad. You keep your personal, family, and marital problems locked tightly away from prying eyes..."

* 69 Leaving after 19 years - - I haven't the words to make you understand the sadness, frustration and sense of betrayal... I said, "Heavenly Father, this church is causing me pain. These men are not hearing me. These men have hurt me and others. I feel these men are lying to me--that they have lied countless times in the past."

* 70 Things I wished I had known - - A wonderful essay. He says, "God will not condemn an honest and sincere thought or question. Truth does not begin with an answer on behalf of which all questions must constantly rearrange themselves. If I want the truth I must begin with questions, fearlessly, and let the answers arrive accordingly.."

* 71 Two stories - - 1. The story of a female at BYU 2. The author writes, "...it is so hard to let go of an organization that has been the source of so many positive experiences in my life."

* 72a. Tough questions - - Why are the answers to tough questions in the manuals? Her bishop also gave her a checklist for repenting of moral sins.

72b. Higher Education - - A short story on life at BYU, serving a mission and recommended information to read.

72c. Has her own web site - - She has a list of why she knows the church is not true. She believes it is possible to be spiritual without being religious.

* 73 Letter file - - An attorney, who is also a recent ex-Mormon, details how he removed his name from the church records.

* 74 Escape from Mormonism - - This young woman writes, "I still wonder, sometimes, how my life would be different had I never escaped. Only now when I ponder these things, I do not feel a pit of sadness in my heart. Instead, I feel a wave of relief.

* 75 See her web site on Women and Mormonism - - She is an active participant in our online group. She writes, "In the ex-Mormon community, I found the healing that I had been seeking. I learned of the historical contradictions, twisted doctrinal thinking, and most important, I found people who felt like I did."

* 76 Spousal Abuse - - "What happens when you have raised your children in this belief system...how do you put the brakes on and say, 'Hey kids, I was wrong?' What happens to you emotionally, mentally, spiritually, and physically when you discover that your life has been based on a lie?"

* 77 Going together - - A husband and wife recently leave Mormonism (Jan. 1998) Both served missions and held many callings over the years. A well written account involving Sunstone symposiums and other events.

* 78 Abuse - - This is a story about sexual abuse. Mormonism like any other group has to face these difficulties.

* 79 "A Twenty Year Journey to Enlightenment" - - A man discusses his life and experiences in the Mormon church."

* 80 Starting over - - The author of this story returned to the LDS faith to make a fresh start after serving in Vietnam. He attended BYU, married in the temple, and then started to question his beliefs.

* 81 A convert - - Tells of leaving the church and the effects on the still believing family.

* 82 A Christian perspective - - Some good analysis here. Documents the different versions of Joseph Smith's First Vision, his prophecies, contradictions between the Book of Mormon and church doctrine in practice, and other inconsistencies.

* 83 She went to BYU - - Writes, "We can outgrow belief systems and occassionally expand our awareness." She studied several religions after leaving the church.

* 84 Stop asking questions - - The similarities between the Masonic rituals and the LDS temple endowment were the beginnings of the end of this author's testimony.

* 85 Feels good. Must be true - - He writes, "Many in the church are made unhappy when pressured to believe what they can't because of their ability to observe and reason. This ability should be admired, but instead it becomes a curse..."

* 86 A Mormon life - - The Mormon church does not teach its members how to deal with real life problems.

* 87 "Integrity to Self Brings Peace" - - This is a well written account of experiencing many facets of Mormonism including a mission to Japan.

* 88 Abuse - - "An autobiographical treatise on the relationship between the patriarchal system, sexual and spiritual/ecclesiastical abuse in my life". This was originally written for the Mormon Alliance for the 1998 edition. The author graciously offered the story to this site.

* 89 More Abuse - - The author writes about his mission in Norway from 1974-1976 and about being abused by a youth leader (seminary teacher) in the Mormon church.

* 90 Yet More Abuse - - Two short stories. One on spiritual abuse - the demands on time made by the LDS church. The other is entitled "Raised a Mormon in Utah"

* 91 Three Stories - - A young man and young woman in their twenties write about their experiences. A woman, who now has grown children and who had served a mission, reflects on her association with Mormonism. These three have a common theme.

* 92 How do I tell the folks - - A man writes a detailed letter to his family explaining why he no longer believes in Mormonism. His parents reacted favorably to his letter. This is the actual private letter.

* 93 Two stories - - This contains two stories from women who left Mormonism at relatively young ages. One talks about the Priesthood abuse of her father and the other of her young years in Mormonism and her rebellion to the religion.

* 95 Two stories - - The first deals with fear and guilt. The second was a convert at age 19. She was turned off by an Institute teacher's homophobic comments in class.

* 96 Finally! A good meeting. - - This story contains an account of going to a Priesthood Executive Committee meeting and proclaiming disbelief. Also contains an exit letter.

* 97 Story from England - - A self described "Golden Contact", he was baptized 3 weeks after his first contact with the missionaries. He worked hard to be temple worthy, but in the end, the church did not meet his needs.

* 98 Tired of trite answers - - Curiosity killed the cat.

* 99 Let down - - This author was looking forward to the experience of a lifetime.

* 100 Unanswered prayer - - Although he wanted to believe, this convert at 18 left the church at 25.

* 101 The change - - "I have never felt so peaceful."

* 102 Golden Contact - - This convert tells of his conversion and later about his mission to Puerto Rico. His mission was not the best 2 years of his life.

* 103 Living - - Agnostic, but Christian

* 104 What would Jesus do? - - The author always trusted that blessings would come from his faithfulness.

* 105 Bored with Mormonism - - The author became involved with a fundamental Mormon group.


mogel007 said...

Nemo believes: "if Smith were a money-digger he could not have been religiously sincere."

Weren't you ever told not to believe everything you read over the internet?

Yea, and "if frogs had wings, they wouldn't sit on their ass either."

Whether true or not, it's still IRRELEVANT, IRREGARDLESS OF WHO QUOTES WHAT THEY BELIEVE HUGH NIBLEY SAID. Mr. Tanner isn't the most reliable person to quote.

I don't know if Joseph Smith dug for treasures OR NOT. Even if he did, so what?????? The added conclusion that he used digging for treasure to further fraud is A CONJECTURE IF NOT A TOTAL LIE. I remember hearing that lie when I was a little boy. What fraud? You garbage explains nothing!!!!

An allegation of fraud, but no fraud is explained or even proven. Just an allegation of some court trial. Guilty of digging for treasure. That's laughable!!!

Your people writing these things are all "apostates" known to be vehemently against the Church. They've all written several books where Hugh Nibley was able to debunk all of their lies. Liars they all are, the Tanners & all these other so called authorities you quote.

You need to quote someone that doesn't have an "axe to grind" & someone that is not totally closed minded & an enemy to the Mormon Church.

If you think that these Court documents exist, THEN PRINT THE COURT DOCUMENTS OF THIS ALLEDGED TRIAL IN A PDF FILE. If you can't do that, then just admit, you believe anything you read over the internet. LOL

Nemo, I was going to nickname you "Agent Colon", but as I was reading documents on Pacer on the Dorean Court trial, I find that there is ALREADY an FBI agent called, "Agent Colon". LOL

It almost sounds like the same crap that you are spewing.

Here is what Agent Colon will do for the prosecutions case:
"The government intends to call "Agent Katia Colon" as a summary witness in order to testify as to THE NATURE OF THE SCHEME AS WELL AS THE FLOW OF FUNDS, throgh various corporate entities to the defendants and to their co-conspirators.


Won't that be exciting to listen to "Agent Colon" expelling a bunch of crap, just like you!!!

mogel007 said...

And Nemo calls me a "windbag". LOL

He's now the "cult and paste" king
hands down after that last post of his.

Are you writing a "book" now, Nemo?

mogel007 said...

Nemo quotes another blabbering liar: "It is also historically recorded that he was removed from membership in a local Methodist church because of the activity and trial results."
___________________________________This is also a lie. Joseph Smith JOINED NONE OF THE CHURCHES of his day & definitely not the Methodist Church, even though he attended many churches as a young boy growing up until he was 15 yrs. old & had his vision.

Joseph Smith 2: 19-20 declares in his own ANSWER in his own history he recorded:

"I was answered that I MUST JOIN NONE OF THEM FOR THEY WERE ALL WRONG; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me," that they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof


mogel007 said...

Gee, what kind of a person spends his time TEARING DOWN FAITH?

Come to think of it, doesn't the Devil do that too? LOL

mogel007 said...

For those wanting to read Joseph Smith's version, it's obvious that his father in law didn't like him very much, so the things Issac Hale, his father in law said, were prejudicial at best, and coming from a father in law that didn't want him to marry his daughter, Emma Hale. Joseph stayed at his father in law's house for a while until it became intolerable so he eloped with Emma & left with his newly found wife. It's no wonder his father in law said some of the things he said. There must have existed alot of friction in the relationship with Joseph & his father in law.

Joseph Smith 2: 56-58 in his own history he wrote, he explains his side of the story about his engaging in "treasure digging" or "glass looking".

neodemes said...


Its not that I give a shit, moog.

I just like to watch you tap dance.

Haven't you figured out this is entertainment yet?

Rave on Mighty Mouth!


mogel007 said...

Entertainment is furthering or telling lies about someone whether it's Kurt or Joseph Smith? You don't give a sh*t?

Yea, like those statements are hardly believable. Whenever anyone gets their feelings hurt, like yourself so easily, it's always something about someone or something else cares about, otherwise they wouldn't get angry or hurt in the first place.

When you threatened the owner of "Property Sites" with legal action if they didn't retract certain comments about yourself that was said, was that entertainment too? It must have been if you're telling the WHOLE TRUTH right now which I highly doubt.

You know, you have all sorts of different standards don't you? One for yourself, and another for other people. What is the term for that? Is it called "liar", or is it more appropriately called, "hypocrite"?

When Dorean is victorious, this statement of yours is probably a foreshadowing of things to come, in the end. Maybe your statement might be something like, yes, I spent years of life fighting what these two heroic men believed, but REALLY it wasn't what most people thought, "I really didn't give a s*it,.... it was all about the entertainment". Well, Nemo "Hollywood" isn't far from your heart, now is it?

Hey, in the end, we can watch you "squirm like a worm" from all of your words and actions that's written in history & see how you can justify all of that wasted time that you expelled.

Maybe you can appreciate this for it's "entertainment value" Nemo. The prosecution intends to call Mathew Johnson-National Bank Examiners of Fraud with the Office of Comptroller of Currency to the stand and he will testify CONTRARY TO defendants representation to victim investors THAT THE FEDERAL RESERVE IS NOT ENGAGED IN ANY FRAUDULENT ACTIVITY.

"And I did not have sex with THAT WOMAN."

mogel007 said...

In the government's own filing or motion we read:

"The Government does not have to prove every alleged fraud, so long as it proves AT LEAST ONE MATERIAL MISREPRENTATION."
Cloud, 872F.2dat851; United States v. Wellington, 754 F.2d1457,1462 (9th Cir. 1985).

So is the trial and the issues really that simple?

One disgruntled Dorean client tells a lie or perverts a story and is able to sell this lie to the Jury and 2 men get a conviction and jail sentence based solely upon that and hence the process is determined to be a scam or scheme by definition, when for all intents and purposes the process was solely meant to be just a challenge under the Fair Debt Collections Practices Act & the legal rights afforded there.

Should the mortgage industry be judged by the same standard? Based upon an audit, a borrower finds at least one MATERIAL MISREPRESENTATION, then, a lender or mortgage broker or anyone that furthered this "lending scheme" including the title companies and those that bought this paper, whom all knew about this, or should have known about this, should all be charged with conspiracy against the UNITED STATES, mail fraud, wire fraud, and bank fraud?

My goodness, let's imprison the whole country in the name of justice. Who hasn't gotten a loan sometime in their life. LOL

Since when has that ever been done in any recent court case that anyone can remember, an owner of title company being charged with such things?

Is the FBI, and Attorney General & US attorneys, really not doing their job properly then and instituting the law fairly among everyone?

Predatory lending is filled with MATERIAL MISREPRESENTATIONS. Even Nemo knows that. He'd probably be first in line to cast the first stone.

neodemes said...

Keep typing moogie.

Maybe someone will take the time to read it.

It just won't be me.

notorial dissent said...

Oh my gagging gohd, what a load of self serving, mind numbing, sanctimonious, toad licking drivel. Kurt you have surpassed yourself in deceit and self deception.

Moogems rants and prattles when he has even less than usual to say, and in the end says nothing.

Moogs, Ms. Dimke refused to add dim and dimmer’s nonsense because it had nothing to do with the charges in question, and the plain and simple fact that the statements are nonsense. They do not get to bargain with the prosecutors about what goes into the plea agreement, they either accept it or reject it, they don’t get to put any of their nonsensical pseudo contract gibberish into it. They don’t get to make up things and then pretend to make a plea, they either make a plea and accept what is offered of they go to trial. So far the only thing they have tried to do is weasel word themselves out of what they are charged with, and the US A has not gone for it.

Pauli girl, Moogs isn’t real good at answering questions, mostly he doesn’t know the answer, and he has now reached the point where he can’t keep track of the lies he has told and is running out of new ones.

Moogey quoting a fool and a fraud "you will NOT BELIEVE what I'm about to do" or agree to

Not really, just more of the dim duo’s nonsense and wasting of time. YOU don’t get to dictate terms and wiggle out of your responsibility for your crimes by inserting outlandish verbiage into a plea agreement. Utter and complete nonsense, in other words, business as usual.

Moogey blathering even worse than usual "Oh the cunning plan of the evil one!" Got that part right at least.

Oh the unrelieved and unmitigated BS!!!!

Moogey buys it by the carload and things the rest of us don’t recognize it.

Yetter put in his three cents worth and it came back a plug DGs work for its clients is almost done.

Yep, it sure is, most of them have already lost their homes and the ones who haven’t have so damaged their credit they will be years getting out from under the mess DG put them in. A real accomplishment there.

Moogey drivels some more I wonder which part of Kurt's affirmation Dimke was so offended by?

I don’t think it was offended so much as appalled at the sheer gall of trying to insert that tripe into the plea agreement, or in other words, signing a plea agreement admitting guilt in a matter and then modifying it by adding, but we didn’t really do any of that and we’ve cooked up a nonsense document that says we didn’t. I suspect nauseated is a closer description.

Moogey makes more of a fool of himself "it appears that Kurt in his latest instrument sent to the Secretary of the Treasurer that you or Nemo posted, is a similiar type of thing being done"

Just one more piece of paper gibberish of no value or significance, and not in the least surprising coming from the source it does. Dim and dimmer cannot instruct the Sec of the Treasury to pay out anything, let alone issue bonds, or anything else for that matter off of the Treasury. The whole thing is nonsense from start to finish. Comical it may be, but of value it isn’t. If they are really lucky the judge won’t have further felony charges
filed against them for issuing fraudulent paper. Incidently, there is no “HJR law” as you refer to it doing any of the things you postulate. Just more nonsense on top of nonsense, coupled with even further silliness about the Post Office. You really are running out of material Moogs.

mogel007 said...

Nemo: Here is the author you used to discredit Joseph Smith, who I might add, has a wild imagination says this, which I think summarizes his work of lies: "As for piecing together the details we have to rely on what we know about the Smiths at this time and make EDUCATED GUESSES."

Need I say more concerning your source?

I read all of your garbage by your authored source to find the ONE GEM I already quoted. Course you can't bother to read even the Book of Mormon. Your "closed mindedness" is only evident by your statement below.

Nemo continues: "Keep typing moogie.

Maybe someone will take the time to read it.

It just won't be me."


mogel007 said...

Notarial Dissent said: "They do not get to bargain with the prosecutors about what goes into the plea agreement, they either accept it or reject it,"

Sounds like an "adhesion contract" which is void by law, kind of like the right to have an arbitration hearing in an agreement, if there is a disagreement about the terms of the contract, between lender & borrower, but the writer of the contract (the lender), demands who the arbitration company will be in writing beforehand.

Such crap has already been ruled upon as invalid by the Appellate Courts. NAF and all of those arbitration firms the banks use & where the banks win 99.9% of the time when arbitration is invoked, shows that they are in bed with the lenders in a conspiracy. There is no fairness or "open mindedness" on issues of conflict on the terms of an agreement & the Courts have ruled that a lender can't invoke a certain arbitration company at the time of the writing of a contract because at the time NO CONFLICT EXISTS between the parties.

An "adhesion contract" is a "take it or leave it type of contract". It's "crap" as Nemo would say.

"Either I want your signature on this paper, or I will give you life in prison." Judge Alsup

Yep, that contracting all right. LOL LOL LOL

mogel007 said...

Isn't that how a thief contracts? He usually will use threats of force with a gun or something of a simliar nature & overpower you and say in such a way to give you an ultimatum so you believe that you can't give a counter offer. He will say something to the effect of:

"Give me all your money or you will lose your life".

Notarial Dissent, don't you know that ANYTHING IS NEGOTIABLE?

mogel007 said...

Notarial Dissent said: "they don’t get to put any of their nonsensical pseudo contract gibberish into it."
What specifically is nonsensical and gibberish of Kurt's conditions in his latest plea agreement and why do you believe that is true?

Wouldn't you agree it's not an agreement unless there is complete understanding and an accord between the parties?

mogel007 said...

Notarial Dissent affirms: "Yep, it sure is, MOST of them have already lost their homes and the ones who haven’t have so damaged their credit they will be years getting out from under the mess DG put them in."

How would you even know how many have lost their homes? How would you know exactly how many clients entered the process. Don't you think you are the one PRESUMING MUCH?

OK, give us the exact numbers of those in the process, followed by the exact number that have lost their homes. If you can't testify to this under oath, then, this is proof postive you are a liar. Can you? I await your response. A no response by you, will be proof positive that YOU ARE THE ONE THAT CAN'T ANSWER QUESTIONS & THAT YOU ARE LYING.

I will say you are most certainly wrong! Most dorean clients still have their homes.

You should really stop lying. It's not becoming.

neodemes said...

How many Dorean clients enetered the process and how many still have their homes?

Numbers, moogie, c'mon!

Can't do it? Gosh, must mean you are a liar.