Friday, February 01, 2008

Bad News (January 17, 2008)

Some big numbers have been thrown around even by Mr. Alsup but the truth of the matter is that the maximum statutory sentence is 5 years. Read the statute 1341 and 1349 from title 18. The maximum sentence is 5 years unless it effected a financial institution. Since no financial institution showed up at trial and no such evidence was entered the 30 years enhancement is not applicable. The conviction was on 1 count of conspiracy 1349 and 35 counts of mail fraud 1341. Now at first glance one would think that 35 times 5 is the maximum exposure of which Mr. Alsup might settle in around the 15-20 years range being bantered about on this Blog. I think Dr. Caligirl vacillates between these numbers. There is a code section in the sentencing guideline called 3D 1.2 and 5G.2 that make it clear that because all these counts are part of the same scheme they must be grouped and the sentence must run concurrent. That means he can sentence me to 35 times 5 years but they must run concurrent. This is the bad news. We went to trial and kept all our "rights," if you believe in such things, intact for appeal purposes and Farrel and Bill get the same time without any appeal possibilities. Again it appears we are stupid. Things that the court of appeals will overturn on that were present should also be considered in your honest examination of the facts. The conspiracy count, which was count one of the indictment, was written in a way that was duplicitous and can't be cured by any remedy except retrial and a new indictment. Problem though; jeopardy has attached by the verdict and can't retry. Guess just have to acquit. Indictment pled only financial institutions as defined in title 18 § 20 as the victims. Remember I told you long ago that you clients had no interest in the trial. This is what I was talking about. Next problem; they pled one victim and brought in others not pled which left a sufficiency of evidence problem for the conviction. Yes I wasn't able to delude the 12 retards who couldn't distinguish an appropriate set of facts with reason. I'm the one full of shit remember. Next problem; the jury instructions state that the banks had legal rights that they were precluded by law from having. The judge trumped the legislators to our brilliant panel of retards. They didn't catch it of course but try that on the 9th circuit. The instructions were also deficient on two mandatory instructions that were omitted and 3-4 others that should have been addresses based upon the evidence submitted. There are about a good dozen areas where the brilliant Mr. Alsup abused his discretion. At this level piss-off this is my court works on the average coward but that is not legal justification accepted at the next level. Next problem; without financial institutions the jurisdictional hook that supposedly gives the feds an interest is lost. If I defrauded a California corporation it is not a fed case. Oops! No federal victim appeared at trial. Can you say overturn? Next problem; the indictment pled damages of loan loss but no losses were presented into evidence so the prosecution changed the element of loss to honest services also which were not proven. You cannot change victims or elements of the crime midstream especially if you don't plead it. This would create so many due process problems I won't bore you with listing them. Perhaps a Beaner or JDJD can enlighten you. Check their brilliance cause they can't be duped by my clever twist. Next problem; the statute 1341 is vague as to the property right in question or it is specific. If it is specific than no proof was offered and a sufficiency of the evidence problem resurfaces. If it is not what is listed in the statute then due process which requires adequate notice of the charges and what needs to be defended is violated by the vagueness. Now this little issue has not been adjudicated as raised by ourselves in 120 years. Do you believe that? Kurt and Scott are the first to raise it. Yeah right! What that means is that the courts find a way to avoid this question of law on some other basis to avoid exposing the governments’ liberal construction that has convictions broadly applied throughout the land. Always ask a question they don't want answered and they will make you go away. Can you say overturn for some other reason? Next problem; the indictment was constructively amended by various redactions that removed the necessary elements of the crimes and the jury was never instructed of their necessity or absence. How are you going to fix that? Can you say overturn? There are other problems that will never have to be relied upon though pled but why bore you with too much obvious. Yeah we are in great peril. Crushed by the very best retards available. Take a peak and see if I'm the liar. Might be surprised.


UPDATE:

I have misstated the above sentencing requirements because I did not have access to a 2002 amendment to the statute 1341. At that time the 5 years was modified to 20 years. Before this becomes an "Aha" for the haters let me explain that this now means that the sentencing guidelines will now become relevant. In a future post I will detail these for you. You'll find that under these conditions I will either get 24 months or 20 years depending on what make believe gets accepted. This is what we'll be deliberating in February.

78 comments:

sopsback said...

maybe Story can tell us what happen.

the Sec of Defense was sent to the hopital this morning.

wanta related??

habakkuk said...

Very interesting e-book that was passed on to me. I will break it up over a period of days. Enjoy the read:

The information in this article will be supported by several Bible examples.
What is a Christian to do when the government protects criminals and criminal
activity such as the abortion clinic? What is a Pastor to do when the government, or the
news media, or well funded liberal hate groups persecute and bad mouth him because of
his doctrine?
What is a Christian to do when he cannot go to the courts, police, and government for
justice? What if the courts, police and government are the criminals? The answer is
IPRECATORY PRAYER. Here are definitions found in most dictionaries.
Imprecation: A curse, denunciation that conveys a wish or threat of evil.
Imprecatory prayer: To pray for evil or misfortune (malediction, anathema,
execration)
Information on imprecatory prayer is extremely rare and that definition is so poor that
the above could almost be called a 'government' definition. Why is this definition poor?
What is a better definition?
First, the definition above is poor because it
conceals more than it reveals.
Second, this establishment definition makes it
seem like imprecatory prayer is somehow
'unchristian'. Imagine yourself on T.V.. The T.V.
Talk Show host would ask, "What kind of a
Christian would ask God to curse, or bring evil
and misfortune on anyone? (The implied answer
is "None!").
Of course the guest’s answer would be
interrupted, or talked over and during the
commercial break the T.V. audience would be
left to believe that the guest is some kind of a
hateful nut. Here is a better definition:

[to be continued]

habakkuk said...

[continued]
Imprecatory prayer is a last resort appeal to God for justice. The so-called 'curses'
are simply the just penalty called for in the scriptures for the alleged crime. Imprecatory
prayer is an appeal to the court of divine justice (1) for protection and (2) the
appropriate punishment for the criminals.
Imprecatory prayer is most often used when the criminals are the rich and powerful or
corrupt men in government. The prayer asks God to solve the problem and bring the
criminal to repentance, or to judgment.

habakkuk said...

[continued]
Here are a few words from a sermon by Pastor Pete Peters as he was commenting on
pages 216 and 217 of Paradise Restored by Rev. David Chilton.
"You be careful with imprecatory prayer. Because if your life is not right. It can have a
boomerang effect. You see, as you judge, so shall you be judged. Think about that. Does
that make sense? I say that because, the other day somebody pointed out to me that a
woman has been praying for me to die in an airplane crash. She is a Christian woman.
She wants me dead. Well, now, I was thinking about that, you know, If I was her son I
would not want to get into an airplane. You see what I am saying? You got to be careful
how you use that power. With imprecatory prayer, if we don't mature as Christians, it is
like putting a loaded 45, `hammer-back, cocked and the safety off, into the hands of a
five-year old. Does that make sense?" Quoted from: Pete Peters, Rules for Radicals. 3-tape
set. www.scripturesforamerica.org
Praying for someone to die in an airplane crash does fit the establishment definition of
imprecatory prayer. (A curse, denunciation that conveys a wish or threat of evil. To pray
for evil or misfortune.) But does that woman's prayer conform to the second definition, "a
last resort appeal to God for justice". No! And that prayer would be un-Christian.
Your personal adversary is not always God's enemy: If a neighbor backs over your
mailbox time after time, you may be angry and extremely frustrated. But you are dealing
with a neighbor, not an enemy of God. The following scriptures apply to this situation.
Matthew 18:22 and Luke 17:3-4. The request that God would have someone destroy
some of his property to teach him a lesson; to care for the property of others, that might
be appropriate. But you don't ask God to kill someone just because you don't like him.
There has to be a crime and an appropriate appeal for justice.

habakkuk said...

[continued...last one for the day]

In the situation where the woman is praying that God would cause Pastor Peters to die
in a plane crash we have Deuteronomy 19:19 to be concerned about. "Then shall ye do unto him, as
he had thought to have done unto his brother," the boomerang effect as Pastor Peters
called it.
In Psalms 109 Jeremiah was the victim of a slander campaign. Jeremiah ask God to do
unto the accuser as he had thought to do to Jeremiah, "Let a wicked prosecutor bring
him up on false charges and even let him be found guilty." Psalms 109:5-6
So, if you hate your neighbor and ask God to curse him, you might just end up having
God bring that same curse upon yourself. This lady who wished Pastor Peters dead, if she
had the money, she might just hire an assassin. Having little money, she asks God to be
the assassin on the free will offering plan. In doing this she just might even bring upon
herself the false witness penalty. She would not be coming before the court of divine
justice with clean hands.
With Clean hands: That is, without guilt. When a Plaintiff comes before a court with a
complaint he is expected to come with 'clean hands'. A thief is not to accuse another of
theft. For an extreme example: Bob and Joe agree to rob a bank and split the money 50-50.
But Bob takes most of it for himself. Joe cannot go to court to sue for the balance of
his share. Joe cannot come before the court with 'clean hands'.

near the end said...

WOW and you guys thought this was a dun deal.

sopsback said...

hab,

we have agreed on many things over the course of this blog...but i must now disagree with you about this "imprecatory prayer" thing...


you cannot invoke the HS to "curse evil" on someone.

not only that, but the HS wont do it.

if he would, dont you think that He would have done it by now??

we have had evil govts. for centuries now.

He wont do it, because the Father has given satan this kingdom. this kingdom/govts can never be turned into a christian kingdom.

thats why god actually tells you to pray for the govt.

not becasue it will become better, as each future govt. will become worse and more evil. but to stay the same is a gain believe it or not.

all those who do evil will be accountable and account for it, but evil must run its course.

agian, rember, this life is made miserable and to suffer so we actually will wnat to leave it and go to the next one or await yeshuas coming/rapture

dont get me wrong, if you are in any programs, and they seem to be on the verge of paying, do enjoy the money.

but, for me personllay, i never forget whose kingdom this is, lest i grow "fat" on the money and can eventually be fooled.

thats why i said on my last post that only the creator of the fiat money system can take it down. hard to udnerstand, but true.

now there are well intentioned people who are not evil, doing what they bleive is right. and they are, and some even appointed by god to do this.

but it still has to havve the OK by the ptb, else it aint happening.

i mean, even wanta. as good a guy that he may be, and well intentioned, you for a second dont think that he doesnt have to ok from the ptb, do you????

c'mon, i mean they take out presidents if they want to.

you dont think that without their permission, they couldnt take out wanta or anynone eles if they "wanta-ed" to ????

of course they can.

even the our warriors here who are fighting for the little guy with a mortgage.

even what they are doing, is happening because the ptb want it to happen, becasue if they didnt, i aint happening.

you can say taht god allowed it to happen, but god gave the devil this earth as His playground. god is not going to overrule what the devil wants.

no, wanta, mort elim and debt elim are happening because as ive siad before, the people at the top of the pyrimad on the back of the dollar bill want it to happen as they feel that the foundations of their pyramid are starting to rock a little and may wind up tipping over with them underneath it, so they need a mechanism of chnge.

remeber, the AC is going to appear to be a kind, wonderful, thoughtful man,etc. why cant we all jsut love one anther??

becasue yeshua said it aint happening until He comes and anything else is just a false love.

nonetheless, having siad this, i think that k and s have done a great job and mucho kudos to them for it.

but, i hope not to offend anyone, but will never compromise what the HS tell me for anything, becuase once you do, then there is no end to that road, or the end is bad.

and rember, god will already curse any enemies who interfere with someone witnessing the true gospel, you dont need to pray for them to be cursed.

didnt god say...

"vengeance is MINE, I WILL REPAY."


SO, why insult Him by asking something for Him to do, that He already told you that He would???



thats why i dont listen to pastors, they will lead you astray...

learn to cultivate wisdom from the HS. YOU WILL GET MORE TRUTH THAT WAY.

habakkuk said...

SOP, you talk too soon before u read the whole thing.

Also, this article is for the mature in the Lord ONLY...Not for babies who think they can go around cursing people.

Go back and read the true DEFINITION of imprecatory prayer.

TRUE DEFINITION (AGAIN):

Imprecatory prayer is a last resort appeal to God for justice. The so-called 'curses'
are simply the just penalty called for in the scriptures for the alleged crime. Imprecatory
prayer is an appeal to the court of divine justice (1) for protection and (2) the
appropriate punishment for the criminals.

I will get the link for the entire article and post it.

habakkuk said...

We have every right to appeal to G-d for justice. Its up to Him to judge accordingly....

So you are correct when you quote "vengence is mine saith G-d....I will repay"

But that doesnt prevent us from appealing to HIS court....does it??

sopsback said...

Also, this article is for the mature in the Lord ONLY...Not for babies who think they can go around cursing people.

======================


but it also leaves one to "self judgement"

ever meet anyone who say that they are spiritually immature "baby"??

those who are, aernt going to acknowledge it.


and, just for argument, even if someone was spritually mature, why do i need to do this when god already said, that "vengeance is His, He will repay??"


i dont need to pray for evil on the evil ones, their "payback" is already assured.


also, leaving it up to Him takes me out of the loop of having to judge anyone.

rember, the evil you see is the fire breathing wizard, not the guy behind the curtain, and its him you hve to get to.


its like all the websites who say that this one or that one is going to be the AC or the false prophet or ???

once someone is named, i immeidately discount them, as no one who would really be them will ever be named publicly.

so to me, the AC will always be a surprise candidate.

altho i beleive that the current pres is the shadow of the rider on the white horse.

just as i believe that the next pres will be the shadow of the rider on the red horse


way, way, way, more dangerous.


dont rely on pastors, use your HS and if you cant, try to discern truth from those who do.


rember: things will be so fake, but exact duplicates, taht "even the VERY ELECT will be deceived, IF that were possible"



thats why i will never be deceived.

if someone shows up, i dont care what they tell me. they are emmisaries of satan. no matter how nice they are...

becasue i know whose kingdom this is and who rules it.


"for no marvel, as satan sends his EMMISARIES OF RIGHTEOUSNESS"


"for no marvel, as satan comes as an ANGEL OF LIGHT"



???? you may be suffering now, but if i put $10 million in you pocket, and life got good for you, would you forget whose kingdom this was???

??? would you now beleive that everything is good, life is good, etc. ????


i would bet that you couldnt make k and s beleive that, becasue god has blessed them with the suffering. they know what is all aoubt.

for somenone getting a bunch of $$$$ without having done any suffering, will almost be like a curse to them.

sopsback said...

also, notice how all of a sudden, that a lot of websites and even some who deal with finances and debt elimination are talking about that you should "work for the Light"


they never metnion Yeshua.


whose light are they working for???


yet, they all say that the dark is evil, and that they are the light.


are they yeshuas light???

if discernment was ever requred, never more than it is now.


so wehn wanta and teh programs puts lots of $$$$ in you pockets, are they the "ligth"???


let me tell you, with the upcoming 1929 depression coming, lots of peeple will turn to the light.


if a Hyip pays me $100k would i take it??

OF COURSE!!!


I AM NOT STOOPID!


and i will even say "thank you" too!


but, if now you start telling me about working for the "ligth", then for me, its "hasta l'vista baby"

you lost me.


tell me, than why dont all these "lightworkers" who are working against evil just say that they are working for yeshua????????


wahts the catch?????


methinks taht they are not.


but wroking for satans angels of light

sopsback said...

and anther thing....


learning truth is a never endding process.


once you stop asking why? then you stop learning truth.

thats why people who follwo pastors stop learning the truth. they turn the responosiblty of learning truth to their pastors.

now, theyre cooked.


can truth be learned from a "pastor"

YES!

B-U-T!!

only if you keep aksing him things taht dont appear to make sense to you and ask him to explain them.


over time, he will say many many contradictory things, which dont seem to make snese to you.


and he cannot keep making sense of htem to you becasue he doesnt represent truth or he wouldnt be a pastor for a million reasons that i dont have time or space here to go into.

and if you keep aksing, he will start to dismiss you.



ask any "pastor" how his church fulfills yeshuas command to "take the gospel FIRST TO THE JEW, and then to the gentile???"



HE CANT. BECASUE THERE IS NOT ONE CHRISTIAN INCORPORATED CHURCH ON THE PLANET THAT DOES THIS.

and dont tell me taht some churches once a week take a group and visit sinagouges.


it says FIRST to the jew. not second. not after a few token visits to jewish homes or other. it means first and foremost.

as ive siad, there are no biblical churches in existence today.

other tahn the one that i am in (and others)


the church at philly of the book of revelation.

also known as the church of all true beleivers.

sopsback said...

like tom cruise said in the movie, "weve got missile lock" in TOP GUN

FIRE!



once you get the HS, YOU GOT MISSILE LOCK!


you locked on the truth,

you can smell it immediately when someone tell you something about the bible, if it makses sense and rings true to you.

can you be fooled?

yes, but only for a while.

becasaue what they tell you has an odor.

you dont know exactly where its coming from, but you can smell it.


like in you house if you smell someting rotten, but dont knwo where it comse from.

someone gves you lies, you know it smells bad, but you gotta do some work,

take waht they say apart adn formulate questions taht you know will make them "give it up"

it may take a while, but you will eventually get "locked on" to their lie and expose it

and in the meantime, they think that they got you and keep goin on making it even easier for you to catch em.
but you keep looking.

sopsback said...

and if you keep aksing, he will start to dismiss you.

========================

meaning that you have now learned a truth in that pastors dont have the truth, as they cannot explain their apparent inconsistencies in teaching the bible.

habakkuk said...

[Despite the pre-mature reply from SOP, i continue the article]

Let him who is without sin cast the first stone: In this Bible story, a woman was caught
committing a felony. And apparently the accusers were felons also. Adulters are not in a
position to accuse others of adultery. When Jesus said, "Let him who is without sin cast
the first stone," none stepped forward.
This is not to be extended to say that no one can ever step forward and cast the first
stone because 'All have sinned” For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Romans 3:23 KJV
A traffic violation on your part does not keep you out of court as a plaintiff when
another person steals your property. Likewise, being a sinner does not mean that you
cannot go to God for justice via imprecatory prayer. The first goal is repentance. So the
imprecatory prayor needs to repent of his sins first then take his complaint and plea for
justice to God.
The purpose of imprecatory prayer is to bring a criminal to repentance. And if there is
no repentance, then to punishment. Not at man's hand, but at God's hand. "Vengeance is
mine, I will repay"

habakkuk said...

[continued]

The governmental courts are considered to be God's courts. If the court judges
righteously and punishes the criminal then the Court's punishment is God's vengeance.
When the Earthly courts are corrupt, we appeal to a higher court, the court of divine
justice. We appeal to God asking Him to get personally involved.
Isaiah 1:12 KJV When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your
hand, to tread my courts?
Zecharian 3:7 KJV Thus saith the Lord of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if
thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my
courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by.
To see the connection between the courts of the Old Testament Levitical priesthood
and today's modern courts go to the link below.
http://www.georgegordon.net/levitical.htm

habakkuk said...

[commentary from the friend who sent the article]

"This only works if we are in Him and are speaking His mind and counsel. This treatise on imprecatory prayer truly embodies "Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done, in EARTH as it is in heaven!!!!! The god of this age doesnt care what we believe.....as long as its in the hereafter!!! "

habakkuk said...

[CONTINUED]

Angel: You look frustrated today my Lord.
God: What a bunch of bone-heads! It's those Christians! I told them to love their
neighbors and hate My enemies. But all they do is fight with the brethren and pray that I
'bless them that curse thee'.

habakkuk said...

[CONTINUED]

Angel: Shall I continue to do as they ask? To bless those that curse them? I hope they
realize, before it is too late, Christians are to pray for blessings upon their neighbors and
curses upon God’s enemies.
A time to love, and a time to hate
A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace. (Ecc 3:8 KJV)
Hate: Hate God's enemies. Pray against them.
I have hated the congregation of evil doers; and will not sit with the wicked.
(Psalms 26:5KJV)
I have hated them that regard lying vanities: but I trust in the Lord. (Psalms 31:6
KJV)
Do not I hate them, O Lord, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that
rise up against thee? I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.
(Psalms 139:21-22 KJV)
Love: Love the brethren, pray for them.
By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
(John 13:35 KJV)
This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. (John
15:12 KJV)
For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one
another. (1 John 3:11 KJV)

sopsback said...

The purpose of imprecatory prayer is to bring a criminal to repentance. And if there is
no repentance, then to punishment. Not at man's hand, but at God's hand. "Vengeance is
mine, I will repay"

========================



OK, then are we saying the same thing?


If I think taht someone is doing evil, I will pray taht they come to knowledge of the HS if they dont already have it.

To me praying taht they stop doing evil requires me to judge what exactly it is that they are doing.

In the case of something like say adultery, that is easily visible to see; on other matters, it may not be so clear.

There are those here who may think that k and s are doing evil and pray for their repentance, see.

K and S may be doing gods will.

I find my way easier and more accurate.

It is a fail-safe.

As far as vengeance is concerned, as you point out with the verse, I dont need to pray for gods veng on someone, He has already said that He will take care of it and repay them.



My condensations of these things do not come willy nilly, but honed from years and thousands of hours of meditation on these matters.

How many pastors can say that?

Not thousands of hours of prayer, but of meditation; sitting quiet and playing it out in your mind asking for HS wisdom on the issue.

sopsback said...

The purpose of imprecatory prayer is to bring a criminal to repentance

=========================


And anther thing dont forget, just becasue someone may be doing evil, does not mean taht he is still not the elect, as we are all sinners in this world.

And if he is already elect, he may then be doing gods will and though it appears evil to you, god is not going to do anything about it.

Better to just pray that he comes to knowledge of the HS if he doesnt already have it, and then let god take over from there.

sopsback said...

There are people here praying for k and s repentance.

So now what do you do????

They believe taht k and s are doing evil.

So according to your way, they are praying to god taht k and s repent or have gods vengeance upon them.


See, my way is foolproof.

If i thought that they were evil, I only have to pray they come to knowledge of the HS, if they dont already ahve it.

My job is now done.

If they come to knowledge of HS, they become the elect.

Once they are elect, then they may be doing gods will whatever they are doing.

I dont have to worry about it anymore.

habakkuk said...

Hey SOP, i can give u a ton of scripture that supports what i'm saying here (in addition to the scripture thats quoted in this article....i hope you're not skipping over that part)

I think its important to note (again) that Imprecatory prayer is most often used when the criminals are the rich and powerful or
corrupt men in government. Remember, government is supposed to be ordained of G-d to do what is just...When they dont do what they are supposed to who do we turn to?? We appeal to a higher court for justice...and ain't nothing wrong with that.

Who in the Bible used this type of prayer?

David, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Elisha, Elijah, the Church in the book of Acts....(i will do more research to find others)

I think in all of those cases they prayed for G-d's protection from an enemy who was threatening to kill them or do bodily harm....THAT IS IMPORTANT.

In my opinion, when someone is trying to steal from me and throw me out of my house....I have a right to appeal to my G-d...Especially when the courts are not upholding the law. I don't think their punishment is to die (at the hand of G-d) when they are stealing from me.....I think James 5 is a good NT outline for how G-d deals with the rich and powerful theives.

One thing you should know by now about me....I dont speak anything unless its clear in the Bible. My opinion ain't worth 2 cents unless i can back it up with scripture.

sopsback said...

In my opinion, when someone is trying to steal from me and throw me out of my house....I have a right to appeal to my G-d.

============================


If you carefully read what I have said, nothing I have said contradicts your right to pray to your god for help with staying in your house.


I was talking about people who are evil and about god taking vengeance on them.

He already told us that he will repay them. We dont need to ask Him to do it.

As far as evil govt. go, I will disagree with you there.

As long as this is satans kingdom, there will be evil govts that will not repent until they are destroyed by yeshua when he comes back.

You can pray for them to repent, thats fine, just dont be dissappointed when they dont.

I dont ever expect them to repent while we live in this world, as the devil runs it and he runs it through the govt, which is evil.

God gave it to the devil to run.

If you think it can be changed before yeshua comes, then you beleive that the millenial kingdom can be brought in by the govt and will wind up worshipping the AC when he comes thinking that he is a benevolent being.

As far as quoting scripture, I let the HS tell me the truth.

All pastors say "lets see what the bible says about it" and then completely misinterpret what it says or means. So, quoting scripture means nothing to me. Only the HS means anything.

Because after they quote the scripture, then they also want to tell me what it means as well??

Excuse me, but to use a parallel from the UCC, have I given the pastor permission to tell me what the scripture he just quoted to me means? To do so means taht I have given him spiritual authority over me and only the HS has that over me. No human being alive does no matter what he calls himself.

He can quote it, just dont tell me what it means. Only the HS can do that for me.

The non elect can even quote scripture, what does that mean?

Can they interpret it? No.

Not saying tht you are not elect, just making a point here.

But, I agree taht you should pray for relief. No question.

Scott from Vineland said...

Hab-
Gotta agree with SOP on this one. One thing that stands out to me is that all of your scripture references about hating the enemies of God and calling for vengeance upon them are Old Testament passages. Now I don't discount the relevance of the Old Testament, particularly as it reveals the nature and character of God. But…

Matthew 5 43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor[g] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,[h] 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren[i] only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors[j] do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect. (NKJV)

Difficult to do, I know but...

2 Corinthians 3 7Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, 8will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts! (NIV)

Are we as Christians not part of this NEW covenant in Christ? God's first covenant was with Israel alone, so much so that He sent their armies to annihilate His enemies down to the last man, woman and child (even their livestock). Do you think God would require us as Christians to do such a thing today? Seems to me Jesus' work on the cross changed the way God judges the world.

habakkuk said...

Scott,

Yes, i agree..Matt Chpt 5 is one i cant just ignore...Its probably the one scripture that i can point to that would prevent me from diving into the pool of imprecatory prayer.

But i still have to wonder how does Matt chapter 5 apply when someone has you (or someone you love) at gunpoint and threatening to kill you. Or how about the abortionist who goes to work and kills a few babies a day....In the eyes of G-d how is he different than Hitler?? And how do we pray in that situation when he is performing these acts right in front of us?

I think these are good questions that Christians find it difficult to answer.

Trust me, i'm not out there praying that people drop dead.

sopsback said...

But i still have to wonder how does Matt chapter 5 apply when someone has you (or someone you love) at gunpoint and threatening to kill you. Or how about the abortionist who goes to work and kills a few babies a day....In the eyes of G-d how is he different than Hitler?? And how do we pray in that situation when he is performing these acts right in front of us?

========================


I will give you what the HS has given me about these things...

First, as I have never faced any of these, I can only speak from a HS wisdom interpretation of the bible.

As far as being threatened at gunpoint, the bible speaks of rebuking satan in yeshuas name.

So, saying to the attacker, "satan, depart from us, in yeshua hamashiachs name" may stop him.

if it doesnt, i believe taht in that instant, the HS will give you immediate wisdom on what to do.

having said these things, i only say my interpretations of scripture and not necessarily what i may do in those situations.

the HS gives people wisdom at different levels as to waht they can understand and apply.

again, each situation is different. also, one must beleive that the HS could protect one and keep them out of such a situation in the first place.

would i try to do something to protect my children if i could without further jeopardising their safety.

of course!

agian, i never said that i am perfect, only that i knwo waht perfection is.


and about the abortioinist, dont worry, he is already acounted for by god. he will get everything due him.

but even you must rember, if just before he dies, he accepts yeshua as his saviour, then there isnt a thing you can say about it.

the Supreme Judge has overturned his conviction.
case closed.


why the importance of not judging others. becasue its not about how they are living, its about whether they accept Yeshua before they die that counts.


see how perfect the word is once you get deep understanding from the HS

sopsback said...

ask any "pastor" how his church fulfills yeshuas command to "take the gospel FIRST TO THE JEW, and then to the gentile???"



HE CANT. BECASUE THERE IS NOT ONE CHRISTIAN INCORPORATED CHURCH ON THE PLANET THAT DOES THIS.

=================


and by the way, ive written about this before.

waht would yeshua have done about the above.

go into a sinagogue and preach.

they will throw you out.

then go back in again.

tehy will throw you out again.

go back still a third time

now they will have you arrested.

thats what yeshua would have done.



theres no church that does this tho.

so they dont take the gospel to the jew and thus totally dismiss yeshuas command.


the best most lame excuse that ive heard from "pastors" is that the bible commands not to violate the law and it is illegal to go into a sunagog and preach christianity or to go into it at all if not a member.



lame-the bible comes first and the law second.

yeshua rebelled agianst the law on a continual basis.

he just did it peacefully and with His words, not with weapons and clubs.

so all churches are bogus clubs that preach theology.

i dont care about all their other "charitble" acitivities.



antoher point about the "gunpoint" issue.

this is the same as churches prayng for soldiers in iraq to be protected.

yeshua NEVER would of done this.

he would have said probably immediately...

"get thee behind me..."


but all churches pray for soldiers to be protected while they kill ohters.

a very good way to represetn christianity.

thats why its a holy war, because you got mainly "christians" there who misguidedly represetn the govt. before they rep yeshua.

its even one thing to lose it and kill someone immediately in front of you who is attmepting to hurt your child, but its a whole other level to kill those whom you dont even know becasue you are told to kill them by your govt.

is there anyone with any HS at all who can see this???

there sure aretn many as all the big churches and radio progs say to pray for the soliders,

how bout praying that they come to HS wisdom and desert the army and follow yeshua first?


yes, there would be a severe penalty for doing that, but tht is part of the lesson and punishment for not knowing that one shouldnt have gotten into it in the first place.

habakkuk said...

"and about the abortioinist, dont worry, he is already acounted for by god. he will get everything due him."

DONT WORRY?? NOPE, THATS NOT A GOOD ENOUGH ANSWER WHEN THEY ARE KILLING MILLIONS OF BABIES IN THIS COUNTRY AS WE SPEAK.

DO THE POLICE, THE ENFORCERS OF LAW, SAY "DONT WORRY" WHEN A MASS MURDERER IS ON THE LOOSE? NO THEY DONT.

AGAIN, I THINK ITS OK TO APPEAL TO G-D IN THESE SITUATIONS BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY THE PEOPLE COMMITING SUCH ACTS ARE NOT REPENTANT AND THE GOVERNMENT (SUPPOSEDLY G-D'S AGENTS FOR JUSTICE ON EARTH) ARE ALLOWING THIS MASS GENICIDE.

habakkuk said...

And if someone has me or my family at gunpoint...I agree, i think we should pray for G-d's wisdom on what exactly to do in that situation....But make no mistake...If i was caught in a struggle with the guy i would beat the hell out of him first...Then we can pray the prayer of salvation:-)

habakkuk said...

Got a scripture for ya:

Acts 13:6-12

ACTS 13:6-12

6They traveled through the whole island until they came to Paphos. There they met a Jewish sorcerer and false prophet named Bar-Jesus, 7who was an attendant of the proconsul, Sergius Paulus. The proconsul, an intelligent man, sent for Barnabas and Saul because he wanted to hear the word of God. 8But Elymas the sorcerer (for that is what his name means) opposed them and tried to turn the proconsul from the faith. 9Then Saul, who was also called Paul, FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT, looked straight at Elymas and said, 10"You are a CHILD OF THE DEVIL AND AN ENEMY of everything that is right! You are full of all kinds of deceit and trickery. Will you never stop perverting the right ways of the Lord? 11Now the hand of the Lord is against you. You are going to be blind, and for a time you will be unable to see the light of the sun."

Immediately mist and darkness came over him, and he groped about, seeking someone to lead him by the hand. 12When the proconsul saw what had happened, HE BELIEVED, for he was amazed at the teaching about the Lord.
___________________________________

#1 Its important to note that Paul was filled with the Holy Spirit and so he wasn't being a Christian maverick and saying whatever he wanted to.

#2 The Holy Spirit made it clear to Paul that this guy was a child of the devil and an ENEMY of the gospel.

#3 This event got the proconsul's attention and sealed his belief in the gospel...no doubt he was saved.
Remember when Ananais and his wife Saphira dropped dead in Acts? What does the scripture say after they died?

Acts 5:5
5And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and GREAT FEAR came on all them that heard these things.

So i want to conclude by saying there is a purpose for this type of praying....To hopefully bring repentence (to both the law breaker and those who witness it), justice, and the fear of the Lord.

But again, we have to be filled with the Holy Spirit to act in wisdom and not in our own flesh...thats where we can get in big trouble with this.

sopsback said...

DONT WORRY?? NOPE, THATS NOT A GOOD ENOUGH ANSWER WHEN THEY ARE KILLING MILLIONS OF BABIES IN THIS COUNTRY AS WE SPEAK.
===============



we disagree on this one.

i dont worry about it.

i did not say not to pray about it, but i dont worry about it.


what would you have me do, kill the abortionist as some misguided people have actually done?

they are just as bad as the abortioinst and will suffer judgment as bad as he will.


easy rule to rember:

you can kill others in yeshuas name, no matter what the others are doing.


kill them if you would, just dont say that its in His name or thats what He woould of done.


waht did yeshua say when the the apostle reached for his sword and cut off the ear of the centurion?


"get thee...."


"he who lives by the sword, shall perish by it"


and then in His lact merciful act, He healed the soldiers ear.


how many of us would take the bullet out of someone who tried to hurt our child after we shot them?

that, is why He was perfection.

sopsback said...

BIG OOOPS!!!!

you can kill others in yeshuas name, no matter what the others are doing.
==================



OBVIOUSLY YOU C-A-N-T kill
others in yeshuas name


BIG TYPO THERE!!!!

habakkuk said...

"what would you have me do, kill the abortionist as some misguided people have actually done?

they are just as bad as the abortioinst and will suffer judgment as bad as he will."

AGAIN, I AGREE WITH YOU....WE ARE NOT KILLING ANYBODY...THAT GOES BACK TO WHAT THE ARTICLE SAYS..."YOU HAVE TO HAVE CLEAN HANDS IN ORDER TO APPROACH THE HEAVENLY COURT TO ASK FOR JUSTICE"

BUT WE CAN ASK FOR G-D TO BRING JUSTICE AND AT THAT POINT ITS ALL UP TO THE JUDGE (G-D) TO ACT.

I DONT IN ANY WAY AGREE WITH THESE PEOPLE WHO BLOW UP ABORTION CLINICS OR SHOOT ABORTIONISTS....THEY ARE JUST AS GUILTY.

BUT YOU HAVE TO AGREE THAT THERE IS A PLACE FOR THIS KIND OF PRAYING....BUT AGAIN, WE MUST PRAY UNDER THE INSPIRIATION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT...THEN WE ARE SAFE.

YOU CANT DENY THAT THIS WAS DEMONSTRATED BY PAUL, THE APOSTLES, AND THE CHURCH IN THE NEW TESTAMENT. OF COURSE, ITS ALL OVER THE OLD TESTAMENT.

Scott from Vineland said...

habakkuk said...
I think these are good questions that Christians find it difficult to answer.
___________________________________
SOP made a good point somewhere in one of his posts... sometimes the Holy Spirit doesn't reveal certain things to us until we come to that place where we MUST know. If God wanted us to have ALL knowledge and wisdom NOW, He would have given it to us.
___________________________________
habakkuk said...
Trust me, i'm not out there praying that people drop dead.
___________________________________
I'm sure you're not, bro. As I have said many times, I believe you're a much better person than that.

Scott from Vineland said...

hab said...
But i still have to wonder how does Matt chapter 5 apply when someone has you (or someone you love) at gunpoint and threatening to kill you.
___________________________________
This is one I mentally struggle with too. I believe I would do whatever was necessary to prevent my wife and my kids from coming to harm, even if it meant taking another's life.
___________________________________
SOP said...
i never said that i am perfect, only that i knwo waht perfection is.
___________________________________
Aside from the typos, SOP hits the nail square on the head with this statement. :-)

Scott from Vineland said...

Hab quotes...
9Then Saul, who was also called Paul, FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT, looked straight at Elymas and said, 10"You are a CHILD OF THE DEVIL AND AN ENEMY of everything that is right! You are full of all kinds of deceit and trickery. Will you never stop perverting the right ways of the Lord? 11Now the hand of the Lord is against you. You are going to be blind, and for a time you will be unable to see the light of the sun."
___________________________________
I see this as more a "word of knowledge" situation than Paul invoking an imprecatory prayer. (i.e. Paul not requesting it, but knowing by the HS that it would happen.) Just my interpretation though...

sopsback said...

see, the whole idea is to build up so much HS wisdom, that you almost dont need the bible to know what to do...


the goal is to think/do waht yeshua would of thought/done.


you just know taht he wouldnt have killed any one.

you just know it...you dont need to go the verses to prove it.

you just know the things that he would do/not do.


he just would not have prayed for soldiers to stay alive while they killed others...whter they be pagan/muslims/ or ????


see, you just know it.


so how can there be churchs/pastors that pray for soldiers unless they are praying for the soldiers to get the HS and quit the military immediately????


the answer simply is: THEY ARE NOT PASTORS OF YESHUAS CHURCH AT PHILLY, NOR THEY HAVE THE HS.


they will refer to the OT for their verses to prove their point, but we are not in the OT anymore. the OT is good for an historical record only.

again, the object is to try to think waht would yeshua have said about it.

deosnt mean that it would be easy to do.

again, the diff between being perfect and knowing what perfection is.


"that we give our bodies as a living sacrifice"

not very easy to do.

someone got a gun, and you jsut rember the verse, tehn say "ok, bro shoot me!"

i am a living sacrifice.

habakkuk said...

"they will refer to the OT for their verses to prove their point, but we are not in the OT anymore. the OT is good for an historical record only."

HMMMMM, THATS INTERESTING...THEN WHAT WERE YASHUA AND THE APOSTLES READING FROM????

PLEASE DONT MAKE RIDICULOUS STATEMENTS LIKE THAT...PLEAAAASE.

Acts 17:11
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. [AND THEY WEREN'T READING THE BOOK OF ACTS BECAUSE THEY WERE LIVING IT]

2 Timothy 3:16
ALL [ALL MEANS ALL BY THE WAY] Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

[AGAIN, PAUL DIDN'T COUNT HIS LETTERS TO TIMOTHY THEN BECAUSE HE WAS WRITING IT...BUT OF COURSE WE INCLUDE IT IN THE "ALL" NOW]

sopsback said...

HMMMMM, THATS INTERESTING...THEN WHAT WERE YASHUA AND THE APOSTLES READING FROM????



i dont know where they were reading from, maybe you can show me the verses.

but, even if they were, that all went out the window after the crucifixion/resurrection.


all i can say is, if you try to live your life by the OT, you will quickly get honed down with wisdom from the NT thru trial/error and lots of suffering.

as ive said, the HS is the key, as without it, doesnt matter how many verses in either the OT or NT that you know, because you wont interpret correctly, much less be able to apply it correctly.

habakkuk said...

"as ive said, the HS is the key, as without it, doesnt matter how many verses in either the OT or NT that you know, because you wont interpret correctly, much less be able to apply it correctly."

I DONT DISAGREE WITH YOU BUT I WAS JUST REPLYING TO YOU SAYING THAT THE OT IS GOOD JUST FOR HISTORICAL REFERENCE...THAT IS ERROR.

OBVIOUSLY WE NEED THE HOLY SPIRIT TO HOVER OVER AND BRING TO LIFE THAT WHAT WE ARE READING.

ITS LIKE IN THE BEGINNING....
Genesis 1:2
The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit [HOLY SPIRIT] of God was hovering over the face of the waters [WORD]

OOPS, THAT WAS THE OT WASN'T IT...I CAN'T USE THAT VERSE CAN I.

habakkuk said...

The WATER represents the WORD.

Ephesians 5:26
that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of WATER by the WORD...

habakkuk said...

You see....we interpret scripture with scripture....this ain't hard

sopsback said...

I DONT DISAGREE WITH YOU BUT I WAS JUST REPLYING TO YOU SAYING THAT THE OT IS GOOD JUST FOR HISTORICAL REFERENCE...THAT IS ERROR.



well, i still feel that it is.

all the concepts are different in NT.

the philosohies of eye for an eye etc.

i still feel tath its just good for historical record now.

but, if the HS is telling you otherwise, then go with it.

the HS is telling me that its good for historcial record only. and i will go with that.

i also feel taht another thing that pastors like to say is "compare scripture with scripture"

i feel that if you have the HS interpreting for you, as i do, then you dont need to do that.

to me, pastors need to do taht to try to convince me (ro maybe even themselves) of their interpretaitons that i disagree with.

agian, once you are locked into the HS, you can look at a verse and know excctly immediately what its trying to tell you.

again, thinking like yeshua would have thought.

but do what works best to you, as i didnt get to the stage taht i am at immediately either.

when i started out, i spoke/thought the same as you do about the OT and comparing scrip with scrip until i acquired enfu HS wisdom to see teh fallacy of those ideas.

simply put, those ideas are propagated by those who would not like you to acquire HS wisdom and use it as a means of control.

its all aoubt control.

you (as i used to) are merely repeating what youve been taught in "churches" until you are ready to "step out of the box", gain enfu confidence in yourself and think like yeshua did.

habakkuk said...

SOP, What is your beef with pastors? Geeeeeeese....you gotta get over that dude.

I don't care if i'm quoting Jim Baker or Jimmy Suaguart or Pat Robertson....It still doesnt negate the fact that you interpret scripture with scripture (with the Holy Spirit of course).

Deut 19:15 .....by the mouth of two or three witnesses [scripture interpreting and confirming scripture]the matter shall be established.

sopsback said...

SOP, What is your beef with pastors? Geeeeeeese....you gotta get over that dude.




i have no beef with them, other than there are no "pastors"


again, if you feel that there are,or at this stage of you wisdom, you feel that you need them to interpret for you, then do what you gotta do.

but to me, there are no "pastors"


if there were such a thing, then i myself am one, if not, then.....

near the end said...

It's intresting how the people on this blog that dis like Kurt won't respond to this latest post.


I take it that; they know Kurt is on to a legal way out of this mess;and Kurt is going to make them look like idiots.

What ya scared of judge roy and ND you to Neo.

near the end said...

It's intresting how the people on this blog that dis like Kurt won't respond to this latest post.


I take it that; they know Kurt is on to a legal way out of this mess;and Kurt is going to make them look like idiots.

What ya scared of judge roy and ND you to Neo.

sopsback said...

any pastor who has HS wisdom would not go around and call himself that.

nor would he take it as an occupation and live off of hard working donors who may take awasy from thier own family to feed him and his family.


also, calling someone "pastor" is giving them spiritual authority over you.

you can do that if you like.

i will pass (tor) on that one.

i will not cede anyone spiritual authority over me but the HS

neodemes said...

Ephesians 4

1I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,

2With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;

3Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

17This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,

18Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

19Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

20But ye have not so learned Christ;

21If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

22That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

23And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

24And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

25Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

26Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

27Neither give place to the devil.

28Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

29Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

30And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

31Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

32And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

sopsback said...

here neodims preaching scripture; love and forbearance in one post and calling me a village idiot in the other one...

hypocritical contradictions? ;-)

near the end said...

Nemo anyone can quote scripture give me a break.

sopsback said...

29Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.


neemo pasted this one but hadnt read it yet when he called me a village idoit.

now he has, but its too late.

sopsback said...

corrupt communication?


can you get him a dictionary?

sopsback said...

GET IN ON YO FRAM CLAIMS:





And the story of how the implementation of these claims can restore the gold standard, end the income tax and the IRS and restore Common Law



"Long before I had ever heard of a plot to bankrupt the Federal Reserve, long before I had ever heard of the Omega Trust, long before I had ever heard of NESARA... and LONG before I had ever heard of Leo Wanta and his $25 trillion trust, I had heard about the FARM CLAIMS.

I know one man who was involved in spreading the information about it. I recently wrote to him and asked him to explain it to me and to all our readers. Here is what he sent me."

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -----

Farm Claims Info to Raye 2-3-07

Dear Raye,

The following is my understanding of the history of the farm claims.

The story starts back in the early eighties.

Two farmer/businessmen, J. B. Foster and William Baskerville were being foreclosed on by one large bank and the Farm Credit System. I am not familiar with the details of what caused this action, but the two men and their wives began to defend themselves in court and at first used attorneys.

When they ran out of money the attorneys left the case and foster and Baskerville continued on their own. They were in and out of court during most of the eighties. At times they filed incorrectly and the case was dismissed for that reason, at other times it was dismissed for other reasons.

In 1990 or 91 they met up with Roy Swasinger and he began to help them. They then began to make some progress. At some point they filed an involuntary chapter 7 on the Farm Credit system after winning damages that were not paid. The Farm Credit System defended themselves by saying that they were not a business, but a Federal Agency and therefore not eligible for bankruptcy. The Judge agreed and dismissed the bankruptcy.

This is in fact true, you will not find the Farm Credit System filed to do business as a Corporation in any State or with the Federal Government. We tried numerous names, that they have used in their business dealings with their borrowers and with the Secretary of States office in a number of states. They were not filed in any of them. That means they should not have been able to use any State Court to foreclose on anyone, which was done numerous times.

That, however, is not the issue we are discussing here. According to the information I read in the Congressional Record, when the Farm Credit System was created by congress in the thirties they were to be only a loan guarantor to the bank making the loan. They were never to loan money directly to the farmer and to my knowledge that was never changed by congress.

Once a period of ninety days had gone by after the bankruptcy Judge's ruling, and it could not be changed, the people involved in the original cases, plus a few others with knowledge of the law, went to court with this and other documents to obtain additional damages. All these cases to date were civil cases. No one involved on the farmers' side ever filed or attempted to file a criminal case. However, the District Court Judge/Judges had evidence of a crime before their bench and they caused a criminal case to be filed. That case number is 93-1308-M. There was a civil case filed at the same time, but I can't remember that number.

The 1308 case is huge, with several hundred pages in the docket sheet. For those who might not know... the docket sheet is like an index of the case. It records all the various filings in a case by name and a number is assigned. If the filing happens to be sealed then it just has a number and it is marked sealed on the docket sheet. There are some sealed items in this case, but most filings can be viewed.

During the time that all this was going on the government came in and offered to settle. That came after they had lost several of the earlier cases and had appealed and lost those appeals as well.

At this time I was not involved on a day to day basis, but was aware of what was happening in a general way. That was because I knew one of the participants that was involved in a legal sense.

He called me one day in February or March of 1993 and asked me what I would recommend in view of the fact that they were meeting with the government in an attempt to settle. He knew that I had been involved in a number of issues that had been negotiated in the past. Since I was unaware, except in a general sense, of what the issues were I could not offer much advice. I knew there were money issues involved and on this subject I said that they should be sure they were plenty high since that would probably be one issue that would be a problem.

A week later he called and said they had an agreement. I asked how much they had reduced the numbers they went in with and his response was that there had not been one number changed. I commented that they must have been to low and he said they were pretty high. Since his home is in Iowa and he was coming home that weekend we made an appointment to get together and I could look at the now agreed to claim.

He asked me to bring some of my previous loans along which I did. After reviewing the claim form and plugging in some of my numbers we added it up and the total was approximately 30 million. I couldn't believe it and commented that there wasn't enough money to pay these if there were very many filed. He said that there was more than enough money even if everyone that was qualified to file did file and that is most Americans.

There are some exceptions, but none of those are the ordinary working person. That was my first exposure to the claim.

I filed in May or June of 1993 and at the time I did it I still had doubts about it ever being paid. But I was looking at what these people were trying to do and felt that if they accomplished it, the $300 I spent for filing the claim was well worth it, even if I never received a dime. There were arrangements made to file the claim for free if the person filing could not afford the $300. Most claim locations had between 40 to 60 percent of their claims be unpaid.

I think it is also important to look at what was agreed to and why.

When the fourteenth amendment was passed there were two attachments to it that most people are not aware of.

One of those attachments was a one time payment to anyone who filed from either side of the civil war that had suffered damages to their property as a result of the fighting. Obviously the reason for filing on this attachment is long gone by.

The second attachment was a one time filing and payment to anyone who suffered damages as a result of our Federal Government failing to protect the citizens of the several states from harm or damages by a foreign government.

This is the attachment that the claim is based on. Most people are not aware of these attachments and that is due to the fact that President Grant, of civil war fame, had the two attachments sealed. Somehow our people had found or in some fashion obtained them. Just because they are sealed does not mean they are still not valid.

So the claim was based on the fact that a foreign government had damaged us as citizens of the several states. That foreign government is the UNITED STATES.

When the Trading with the Enemy Act was modified and signed by President Roosevelt on March 9, 1933 the citizens of the several states became enemies of the Federal System called the UNITED STATES. That was the basis of the claim and the agreement by the Federal Government to the claim is proof that they agree.

Since the agreement was reached in an out of court settlement after the litigants were in trial the Judge had to agree to the claim. He did and then as is normally done in cases settled while in court the resulting agreement was sealed.

That means we can talk about the settlement and show the claim which is the result, but we cannot show the court record of this without violating the terms of the agreement which could and in this case no doubt would invalidate it.

The result of all this court action was that we now had an agreement on a claim that could be filled out by the claimant One of the items that had been negotiated away when reaching the settlement was the right to put this information on the major TV networks, which was what was originally planned.

Therefore the only way to publicize this agreement was to have meetings across the country. It was in this process that I became actively involved.

The claims process had three major objectives.

First, the banks would be required to go back on lawful currency (gold and silver) as the Constitution requires. This had to be done because the agreement required that the claim be paid in lawful currency not legal tender. Please do not say there is not enough gold because that is not true. What this will do though is eliminate all inflation.

Second, the courts would all be required to go back to common law (versus gold fringed Admiralty Law) as the Constitution specifies. This would mean that we get back to the idea that if there is no damage or harm there is no violation of law and much of the creation of millions of laws to control people would be eliminated.

Third, the IRS would be disbanded and a constitutionally proper tax (sales tax) would be created and implemented.

The people who were involved in the court cases and the settlement of the details of the farm claim knew that if these three things were accomplished then the Federal System would soon be brought back under control and its size and power reduced to what is prescribed by the Constitution.

Finally, the result of all this was... claim meetings began across the country and this continued and grew in size until the Government realized that unless it was stopped soon it would be completely out of control.

So those of us actively involved in management of this process were raided and charged with various crimes, found guilty and imprisoned, some are still there.

The government violated the agreement they reached and signed.

The fact that they violated the agreement though in no way causes it to be eliminated.

It is still there and activities are ongoing to cause its implementation.

I believe this is going to happen. I just do not know when.

Because the Farm Claim payments and all that it would entail weren't allowed to occur... the avenue that would have allowed this country and its citizens to make the change gradually and without chaos was closed.

Now... when the change finally comes that will ensure more freedom and a brighter future for our progeny, the resulting change... could be quick and violent and who knows what the end result will be.

Throughout the history of the world, when countries place their financial systems in methods that use fiat currency and fraudulent paper, the ending is devastating and I believe this time will be no different.

[If all of this is true, and I have no reason to doubt it, this certainly clears up a lot of things for me, as it might also do for you. Alan Babin]


www.rumormil lnews.com/ cgi-bin/archive. cgi/noframes/ read/99056

sopsback said...

FRAM CLAIMS:

YO CAN PAY US NOW;

OR

YO CAN PAY US LATER....


BUT EITHER WAY,

YO GONNA PAY!

Scott from Vineland said...

sopsback said...
here neodims preaching scripture; love and forbearance in one post and calling me a village idiot in the other one...

hypocritical contradictions? ;-)

5:48 PM


near the end said...
Nemo anyone can quote scripture give me a break.

7:44 PM


sopsback said...
29Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.


neemo pasted this one but hadnt read it yet when he called me a village idoit.

now he has, but its too late.

8:25 PM
___________________________________
Geez, neo can't catch a break with you guys, can he? Someone told him previously they would rather he just posted relevant scripture WITHOUT his commentary and when he does that, you guys attack him anyway. SOP, did you ever consider that maybe Bruce knows he's not perfect either? Also, I thought maybe he wanted you (SOP) to focus on these verses:

11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

That was the point I took from his post.

Scott from Vineland said...

near the end said...
It's intresting how the people on this blog that dis like Kurt won't respond to this latest post.


I take it that; they know Kurt is on to a legal way out of this mess;and Kurt is going to make them look like idiots.

What ya scared of judge roy and ND you to Neo.

1:42 PM
___________________________________
NTE, buddy... I really can't see that being the case. You wouldn't be trying to bait our friends ND, Neo and JRB into another pissing match, would you? ;-)

Scott from Vineland said...

habakkuk said...
SOP, What is your beef with pastors? Geeeeeeese....you gotta get over that dude.

SOP said...
nor would he (a pastor) take it as an occupation and live off of hard working donors who may take awasy from thier own family to feed him and his family.
___________________________________
Tithing is a biblical principal, SOP, don't you agree? While I agree that pastors should not seek to become wealthy through their ministry, God's people are required to return to God a portion of that which He blesses us with. If we give in faith, don't you think God will bless us? I am with Hab on this one... I think you have some gripe with any aspect of worship that you view as organized. I am curious about something... since you seem to forego the assembley of yourself with others in organized worship, how do you tithe? (If this is not too personal a question.)

Scott from Vineland said...

SOP said...
also, calling someone "pastor" is giving them spiritual authority over you.
___________________________________
Not sure I agree with this either. Many Christians DO accept their pastor as having spiritual authority over them but they shouldn't. Most of my Christian life my pastors have been older men who I afforded a certain amount of respect as my seniors. It followed that I gave them a certain level of authority over me for the same reason. But they weren't necessarily any more gifted in interpretation of God's word than me. My pastor today is a few years younger than me. We relate on a similar level and he doesn't attempt to assert any moral or spiritual authority over me. He shares God's word and how it applies to his life and I weigh his words against my own understanding.

near the end said...

No Scott it's just intresting.

Also if you read neo's web page you will see he did alot of Bashing himself.

But I don't wish harm to any of them.

Scott from Vineland said...

near the end said...
No Scott it's just intresting.

Also if you read neo's web page you will see he did alot of Bashing himself.

But I don't wish harm to any of them.

6:47 AM
___________________________________
I agree that this conversation is always interesting. And I HAVE read Neo's forums. Yeah, there have been regrettable words spoken by people on both sides. But if you read from the beginning, you will see that the conversation was civil enough early on. But the frustration built up over time, due in large part to the words and actions of people like Moogie and Flea.

near the end said...

10-4

mogel007 said...

SOP says: "ask any "pastor" how his church fulfills yeshuas command to "take the gospel FIRST TO THE JEW, and then to the gentile???"

HE CANT. BECASUE THERE IS NOT ONE CHRISTIAN INCORPORATED CHURCH ON THE PLANET THAT DOES THIS.
_________________________________

The problem with your assumption that Christ's church can't be here on this earth is simply this.
Until the gospel is preached to all, the Jew & the Gentiles, the end of the world as we know it, CAN'T COME, so this stops or delays God's foreknowledge of all the timing of great events already prophecized long ago, if you are correct. You can't define Christ's church as just a "body of believers", because it is clear from many scriptures that Christ's church originally was more than just this. The scriptures to support this are too numerous to list here.

Secondly if God's church is not on this earth, this violates God's principle that "He is the same yesterday, today, and forever". He set up his church originally with prophets, apostles, evangelists, pastors, teachers, deacons, etc. What church has this same organization today? The purpose of these offices was to bring all to "the unity of the faith unto a perfect man, unto the perfect stature & fullness of Christ, so we are not tossed to & fro with all the wrong winds of doctrine of man." See
Ephesians 4: 11-16. That scripture is from memory & haven't looked it up, but I think it will explain the same thing I wrote.

Jesus also said, "upon this rock, I will build my church". The Catholics have misunderstood that the rock refers to Peter, unless you believe that the Catholic Church is his true church today, which of course you don't.

The rock refers to revelation, so Christ's church must have prophets to receive revelation & there must be real prophets today with the power & authority to speak for God to direct his will in modern times. Amos 3: 7 "Surely the Lord God will do nothing, save he will reveal his secret to his servants the prophets." Who are these servants?

I know you will say that the Holy Ghost teaches you all things, but the problem with your assumption is that in order to receive the Holy Ghost it must be conferred upon you by one having authority by the laying on of hands according to the scriptures. Has this been done for you & can you trace whoever conferred this right upon you by this line of authority back to Christ himself? "You have not called me, but I have called you & chosen you & ordained you." is what Jesus said. Christ's priesthood or authority has been here since Old Testament times from the Aaronic Priesthood to the Melchizedek Priesthood. Only the higher priesthood which Jesus had, which John didn't have, can confer the gift of the Holy Ghost. Remember, even John the Baptist knew that he had to be baptized by Christ, referring to the "baptism of the Spirit" which is receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, because even John the Baptist didn't even have this, until Jesus conferred this upon him. Remember John said to Jesus, "I have need to be baptized from you."

Also your assumption that there is no true church with the authority to teach the full truth, this violates the scripture in Acts 3 which talks about "the restitution of all things" which restitution of all things MUST HAPPEN before the 2nd coming of Christ. So until Christ's church is restored, one does not need to fear the end of the world, or the need for the rapture as you call it & the impending destruction of this world. Course the signs of the times seem to be happening don't they? If you restore things that are lost, wouldn't that include Christ's original Church that was lost & his original doctrines in their pure form, so we aren't deceived?

We both agree that there was an apostacy of the Church as the prophets & apostles were killed & the authority was taken from the earth, so a restitution was necessary & even prophesied.


All the Reformers of the Catholic Church, like Calvin, etc. acknowledged many of these things & were looking for the same authority that existed in past times & the same doctrines that were taught originally which all the great reformers said many of the pure doctrines of Christ were perverted & changed by the Catholic church. Speaking of almost all the other churches today, they are just breakoffs from the Catholic church. If the original tree is dead with false doctrines, breakoffs from the dead tree, can't bring you life where you will "never thirst again," because the reformations of mere men trying to guess what the will of God is will never do either as far as the complete truth is concerned.
Only a restitution through divine revelation & the Lord calling a prophet specifically to restore all things properly, can do this.

mogel007 said...

Near the End said: "It's interesting how the people on this blog that dislike Kurt won't respond to this latest post."
_______________________________

I think that's an excellent point!!!! People like Notarial Dissent, won't respond because they have nothing intelligent to say on the issues that Kurt brought up. They probably have never even considered Kurt's latest points which shows how dumb they really are. Silence equates to agreement. When you agree deep down that someone is right, it's best to shut up, when you can't put up a good argument otherwise. Naysayers can see that Kurt has some excellent points & they don't know what to say, so silence is the best they can do.

The Jury convicting the Dorean Group through a midst of confusion and ignorance & basing that conviction upon wrong legal principles, might be the best thing that has happed to date. If there is no proven crimes, that the evidence & legal principles and jurisdiction can support, than the dorean process must stand, and all clients are due financial damages from the government. Hopefully a higher court or FINANCIAL SETTLEMENT behind closed doors, will provide this justice. The problems on how things have turned out so far, and how justice and fair play has been raped, WILL NOT GO AWAY, until all the facts have been fairly & legally considered & amends made. You can't convict & sentence based upon fantasy island principles. If it takes an appelate court or even the Supreme Court to settle this, than let it happen, the sooner the better.

mogel007 said...

Scott said: "But the frustration built up over time, due in large part to the words and actions of people like Moogie and Flea."
_______________________________

Would you like to back up your bashing and accusations with good facts? Words and actions? Give me a break! So it's the Brokers fault now that the lenders have cheated everyone? You've got to have a fall guy or someone to blame somewhere, don't you, I guess it might as well be me. LOL

Should I apologize for your frustrations? LOL
I certainly don't apologize for my words of conviction on this subject matter.

I'm much more civil than you give me credit for & have put up with much more crap than you could ever tolerate, but your opinions don't mean much to me because you are wrong on the major issues here and the spirit of this blog.

Scott from Vineland said...

Mogel said...
Silence equates to agreement.
___________________________________
That's a pretty broad statement.

Scott from Vineland said...

Mogel said...
So it's the Brokers fault now that the lenders have cheated everyone?
___________________________________
No, it's the brokers fault that people like Wendy lost their homes.

Scott from Vineland said...

Mogel said...
You've got to have a fall guy or someone to blame somewhere, don't you, I guess it might as well be me.
___________________________________
I'm OK with that.

neodemes said...

Golly, SOP, did I hurt your feelings?

I'm sorry.

However, as long as you insist on filling the blog with drivel, I can only call 'em as I see 'em.

Sometimes you actually make sense.

Mostly you act like a fool.

Scott from Vineland said...

Mogel said...
I'm much more civil than you give me credit for...
___________________________________
Debatable

Mogel said...
& have put up with much more crap than you could ever tolerate
___________________________________
This is probably true.

Mogel said...
but your opinions don't mean much to me because you are wrong on the major issues here and the spirit of this blog.
___________________________________
It is certainly your perogative to feel this way, just as it is my perogative to disagree.

Mogel said...
Should I apologize for your frustrations?
___________________________________
No, because I have the choice to allow you frustrate me or not. You and I don't owe each other anything. Just don't pretend that you've been some kind of angel here or that all your posts have been delivered in the spirit of kindness.

Scott from Vineland said...

Neo said (regarding SOP)...

as long as you insist on filling the blog with drivel, I can only call 'em as I see 'em.

Sometimes you actually make sense.

Mostly you act like a fool.
___________________________________
SOP, you clearly have a good grasp of so many spiritual truths. Do you really believe in all that other nonsense you post? Or is that just a gag? I have never been able to figure you out.

mogel007 said...

Scott said: "No, it's the brokers fault that people like Wendy lost their homes."
______________________________

Was it her Broker that told Wendy not to continue to make her monthly payments? Was it the Brokers fault that Wendy didn't try to get current when the lender was dead bent on foreclosing?

Now that's a BROAD STATEMENT that I believe even Wendy wouldn't agree to. Do you speak for Wendy now? How well do you even know her? Wendy never blamed her Broker to my knowledge anyway from what I read on any internet post. I think she is still good friends with her Broker, or is that news to you?

Wendy was smart enough to know that the lender took her home wrongfully, not her Broker. Do you even know who Wendy's Broker was? I bet you don't.

Again, you need a scapegoat, don't you, somebody to blame, because you'll never blame the real source.

Again, if Kurt & Scott go free, than the Dorean Process was/is legitimate, & the only ones that needs to be blamed for fault, are all the people and government entities that fought the process.

I think it makes more sense to blame the loan broker than to blame the dorean broker. Course you couldn't do that, could you? LOL

mogel007 said...

Scott said: "Just don't pretend that you've been some kind of angel here or that all your posts have been delivered in the spirit of kindness."
__________________________________

OK, I won't pretend that I'm always kind if you won't pretend that your are a true friend of Kurt's and you look forward to rekindling that relationship! LOL Fair enough? Course I don't recall always pretending to be nice either, nor is everyone ALWAYS deserving of nice comments, unless you think flattery is nice and appealing and the Lord's way always? Course than again, that's less than honest, isn't it? What is more hypocritical?

If I have a choice between being either kind or truthful, I'll pick truthful, sorry if that offends you or frustrates you.

I suppose Jesus wasn't very kind either when he called the moneychangers a "den of vipers and thieves", but I'm not his Judge, nor are you mine.

Course there are angels that aren't so nice, aren't there? Before the second coming there will be angels of destruction sent to send fire down upon the earth & to destroy all evil doers. How nice is that? The truth isn't always nice or angelic either, especially if the truth convicts. Justice isn't always nice or pleasant either.

I don't recall promising you a rose garden. Even Wendy wasn't promised a rose garden.

neodemes said...

Regarding Wendy

Scott from Vineland said...

mogel007 said...
Do you speak for Wendy now?
_____________________________________
I never claimed to.

mogel007 said...
How well do you even know her?
_____________________________________
Never met her. I only know her from her sad and tragic postings on Neo's forum.

mogel007 said...
Do you even know who Wendy's Broker was? I bet you don't.
___________________________________
Sara Magoon, wasn't it? Not that it matters who sold her the process. End result was the same.

mogel007 said...
That's a BROAD STATEMENT that I believe even Wendy wouldn't agree to…...
Wendy never blamed her Broker to my knowledge anyway from what I read on any internet post. I think she is still good friends with her Broker, or is that news to you?

Praisin JC said… (regarding Dorean Victims Unite)
I am the first to sign up!!!! I would also like to say....FLecompte...KISS MY ASS!!!! BRING IT ON BIG TALKER!!!! PROVE I WASN'T SCREWED BY THE DOREAN GROUP. I DARE YOU!
__________________________________
Yup, sounds friendly alright.

notorial dissent said...

The Bilge report for January 17, 2008, or the Bad News is.... Kurt you’re going to jail for a very long time.........

Wherein that great legal scholar and all around genius Kurt Johnson exhibits his ongoing delusions of having even the vaguest of clues about reality, and/or the law, or that he will ever set foot outside of prison again.

Noting that you have missed the clue bus entirely Kurt, they are called sentencing guidelines for a reason, they are only guidelines. Federal judges rather impolitely informed the Congress that they could not intrude on the judicial role in sentencing, and they are free to do what they feel like within the bounds of the law, and when adding mitigating and exacerbating factors of behavior and the seriousness of the charges they can and do go to the maximums of the sentencing, and they are NOT restricted to making them concurrent despite what you think. The judge wasn’t kidding about 400 years.

You are free to appeal anything you want, just as the appeals court is free to laugh in your face and send your appeal bouncing down the road like your checks and administrative processes. The appeals courts will laugh at you and the Supreme Court will ignore you. You have nothing substantiative to raise and the court was more than fair in dealing with you. You got where you are by your very own big mouth.

Again the great legal mind stretches and misses. Your legal insight is total nonsense, and will be proven so when your appeal is denied and your sentence confirmed, if not expanded.

You were indicted, charged, brought to trial before twelve impartial and uninterested jurors, and found guilty on all counts presented. That is sufficient. The “retards” weren’t impressed with you or you BS, and were more than capable of seeing your crimes and seeing them, and you for that matter, for what they were. A cheap, petty, incompetent con artist with severe delusions of adequacy.

more Kurtian BS
If I defrauded a California corporation it is not a fed case.

Wrong, as usual. If you used the mails, the telephone, or the internet in any part of the scam, or involved Federally insured financial institution in your fraud, which gee, you did all of the above. Yet another example of your legal brilliance and acumen.

You were charged with the crimes you were convicted of, which does not mean that you cannot still be charged for the others, or that in somehow not charging you, it makes the other fraud go away. Wrong yet again. No matter what noise you make, the fraud charges will not go away, nor will the conviction. Can you say convicted dead to rights and going away for the rest of your miserable life, I can, and so can anyone else who isn’t brain dead or so deluded that they think up is down. Just keep right on deluding yourself Kurt, you can keep telling yourself that it will all go away, even when you are uncomfortably settled into your new ten by ten home in March or whenever the sentencing hearing is. You are deluding yourself if you think you are going to get 24 months, you will be very lucky if you don’t get the maximum 20 for each count. One other point Kurtums, they don’t do parole in the Federal system, if they say 20 years, they mean 20 years, for real, whatever you get sentenced to you will serve.

Moogems rehasing rearend to no point
Blogger mogel007 said...

Near the End said: "It's interesting how the people on this blog that dislike Kurt won't respond to this latest post."



Moogey exercising his mouth and resting his brain-again
People like Notarial Dissent, won't respond because they have nothing intelligent to say on the issues that Kurt brought up. They probably have never even considered Kurt's latest points which shows how dumb they really are. Silence equates to agreement.

Moogs, don’t flatter yourself, not that you have any reason to. Silence generally implies, boredom, lack of concern, lack of interest, or just general tired of your silly nonsense.

Unfortunately for you and Kurtums, the jury was not in the least confused about what was going on, apparently were no where near as ignorant as you and Kurtian faithful seem to be, and followed the legal standards in finding dim and dimmer guilty on all counts. They had no confusion about any of the charges, or of the guilt of the parties involved. They crimes were proven and proven satisfactorily and to a legal sufficiency, and the Dorean crap was proven and adjudged a criminal fraud to go with having been adjudged a civil fraud. The Dorean process is a crock and as such has been consigned to the legal dustbin of defunct frauds. “Hopefully a higher court” will force a financial settlement, you are delusional. It ain’t a gonna happen. The civil case is dead, and the criminal case will be final with the sentencing. There will be no settlement, there will be no pretending dim and dimmer didn’t commit gross amounts of fraud, and cause a great amount of financial damage to a great many people. Dorean is DEAD, and all your and Kurt’s whining and nonsense will never change that. The case was fairly and legally considered and they LOST, and lost as they should have. Fraud is fraud Moogs, and it got exactly what it deserves. You are beating a long dead horse, which just adds to my general impression of your lack of even basic smarts.

Moogey again making a fool of himself
Again, if Kurt & Scott go free, than the Dorean Process was/is legitimate, & the only ones that needs to be blamed for fault, are all the people and government entities that fought the process.

There’ll be pork in the treetops first. Kurt and Scott are going to spend the rest of their wasted lives in prison, and Dorean was and is a crock and will remain so.

Moogey shows his true character
I think it makes more sense to blame the loan broker than to blame the dorean broker. Course you couldn't do that, could you?

I’m sure you would, but then you long ago lost your moral compass or the right to claim anything along those lines. The loan broker didn’t tell Wendy to stop making payments, and they didn’t make any promises to her they couldn’t keep, so again, you show your true colors. The plain fact of the matter is that if Wendy, and the rest of the Dorean suckers for that matter, had never met dum and dummer, they would most likely still be in their homes instead of out on the street. So that says a great deal about just how honest and ethical the whole thing was.

Scott from Vineland said...

Near the End said...
It's interesting how the people on this blog that dislike Kurt won't respond to this latest post.

mogel007 said...
People like Notarial Dissent, won't respond because they have nothing intelligent to say on the issues that Kurt brought up. They probably have never even considered Kurt's latest points which shows how dumb they really are. Silence equates to agreement. When you agree deep down that someone is right, it's best to shut up, when you can't put up a good argument otherwise. Naysayers can see that Kurt has some excellent points & they don't know what to say, so silence is the best they can do.

notorial dissent shredded Kurt & Mogel's arguments...
___________________________________
Well, you guys DID ask for that!