Thursday, April 10, 2008

Things are Perfect for You (March 23, 2008)

Do you understand how one is perfected by suffering? Most spend their whole life seeking comfort and ease. They attribute good fortune to godliness. Bad things are evidence of judgment. You have seen these retards on here. God does not perfect His body as retards perceive. God places His children that cause their soul to surface. Our hearts have many dark places hidden even from our eyes. When God brings His light of revelation, these are exposed. Because His ways are so much higher than ours it is only the trials that shake our souls of their stupor. Do you reason with God in a deep search of answers when you are content with everything in your life?? There are seasons of fat but these are not the heights of growth. They are our rest until our next faith challenge. Many of you have lost home or even family for truth. Are you shrinking back now because the cost was too height? Did you begin in the sprit and now seek recovery through the flesh? I’m certain you have come to your breaking point too many times to count. Yet will you admit your breaking point was a fraud? So is your day so is your strength. God is a faithful supply. The life of trust is perfected in the melee of risk and uncertainty. It forces one to choose faith as the substance of things hoped for or not. Through I fight to deliver you your promise; I cannot make my desire case and chief. I surrender to God’s eternal work in you. Who am I to war against God? I was against all that opposes God within me. How about you? Mortgages are important but souls are priceless. You are loved I’ve said before, loved enough to be perfected. Don’t ridicule God’s handiwork in me or in yourself. Join forces with Him and learn to be more than a conqueror. Maybe soon bankers and judges will be your battles. If the foot soldier weary you how will you run with the horses? Suffering is for your strength and the growth of His body. Do not grow weary and faint not our God is a refuge and a strength. Consider the work of God when your soul races for comfort and ease. Even in suffering there is joy and peace which are not equal to the soul’s cry for self-preservation. If I would follow this voice I would have more friends than enemies. I would rather please God. My brothers and sisters know of what I speak.

80 comments:

Scott from Vineland said...

Looks like Kurt and I were thinking the same thing.

Come home, come home...
Ye who are weary, come home...
Softly and tenderly, K.J. is calling... calling, Oh sinner, Come Home!

judge allslop said...

double fricken tard

neodemes said...

Kurt,

Do you think it is our trials that perfect us?

You might want to spend less time preaching and more time in the Word.

Then you shall be equipped with Truth and unburdened of vanity.

judge allslop said...

Look who's talkin, Mr humble pie himself.

Scott from Vineland said...

judge allslop said...
fricken tard
fricken tard
fricken tard
double fricken tard
___________________________________
Thank you for your interest and the spirited audition; we regret to inform you, however, that Frickentardistan already has an ambassador to this forum. (Moogie, are you gonna let Jethro here steal your job without a fight?)

judge allslop said...

I want you to feel right at home Scott. Triple fricken tard

mogel007 said...

To the person that is searching for more information on what is going on or what has gone on in the Dorean Group court proceedings, here is a good link for you:

http://searchjustice.usdoj.gov/search?q=Dorean+Group&sort=date%3AD%3AL%3Ad1&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=iso-8859-1&oe=UTF-8&client=default_frontend&proxystylesheet=default_frontend&site=default_collection

mogel007 said...

Hopefully I have the full link here:

http://searchjustice.usdoj.
gov/
search?q=Dorean+Group&sort=
date
%3AD%3AL%3Ad1&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=iso-
8859-1&oe=UTF-8&client=default_frontend&proxy
stylesheet=default_frontend&
site=default_collection

mogel007 said...

If that link doesn't work, type in:

www.usdoj.gov

Then in the search box on their webpage type in:

Dorean Group

and it will take you to the link with more reading information

mogel007 said...

Nemo: Maybe you should spend more time reading the scriptures yourself & less criticism. The doctrine Kurt says about suffering is all over the Bible. Observe the example of Christ & what he did & go & do likewise. Suffering was good enough for him but beneath you?

Romans 8:17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings IN ORDER that we may also share in his glory.

Footnote: So much for cheap grace!!!!!

18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us.

19 The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed.
__________________________________

2CO 1:7 And our hope for you is firm, because we know that just as you share in our sufferings, so also you share in our comfort.
_________________________________
PHI 1:29 For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him,
_________________________________
2 TH 1:4 Therefore, among God's churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring.

5 All this is evidence that God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.

2 TI 2:12 if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;
_______________________________

HEB 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

10 In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation
perfect through suffering.
________________________________

Hebrews 5:8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered

9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
______________________________

I Peter 4: 13 But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that
you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed.

14 If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you.

I Peter 5:10 And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in
Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.

mogel007 said...

Nemo: Do you think you are better than Christ & that you learn obedience in a DIFFERENT WAY than suffering? Who is the vain one here by your OWN CHOICE OF WORDS alone? Get real!!!!!

Hebrews 5:8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.

Scott from Vineland said...

judge allslop said...
I want you to feel right at home Scott. Triple fricken tard
___________________________________
Anywhere I roam....
Where I lay my head is home (yeah, yeah)

judge allslop said...

Tag,your it.

neodemes said...

There goes moogie again, making inferences and then running off at the mouth as if he is actually responding to what was really said.

Try as you might, moogie, you can't cheapen grace, and you grieve the Holy Spirit every time you use that phrase. Not that your comment even fit the topic at hand.

I didn't say suffering wasn't relevant in the life of a Christian.

I'll type slower for you...

"D-o y-o-u t-h-i-n-k i-t i-s o-u-r t-r-i-a-l-s t-h-a-t p-e-r-f-e-c-t u-s?"

neodemes said...

O foolish moohie, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

neodemes said...

edit: foolish moogie

dr. ira gilac said...

wy yo pay tension to juge asslop??

dr. ira gilac said...

by the way, speeking of trails...i spaked with SOP on long distace, verrry long distance.....

he sayed to tell nickeldims that yo trails sanctify yo.

that he tole all yo when he was down here that yo each must hang on a cross like christ did to be worthy of Him....


"count it all joy when you suffer trials...."


KEY WORD: SUFFER

judge allslop said...

Judges have authority over Dr's

dr. ira gilac said...

judge allslop said...

Judges have authority over Dr's




no yo dont!

yo haf no authrity over me.


my name is dr. ira gilac


not



Dr. IRA GILAC©


so yo lows dun appy to me.

dr. ira gilac said...

speeking of YOUR NAME©



on a nother blaaaagh, someone wrote that some of the biigger HYIPs are acutally gong to payout soon.


but bcoss of the patricide act, yo need to provide an ID to get yo muney.


this can be a divers incense, or yo beeth certifrigit.

so if they make yo provide this to get paid, then cant tey still find a way to take yo money away beacuse yo still in THE SYSTEM©
by using your divers licinse or berth certficate??


this doesnt make cents to me??

shoundt they burn they STRAWMAN© first, or at least let toto bite the WIZARD© to pieces??

dr. ira gilac said...

Humorable Judge Mailliw Pusla



seem like i herd that name befo......seem polish to me??

like that name Z-big Zbigniew brzenski

dr. ira gilac said...

now jutch asslop be happy!


that other site now have a lot of porcelain on it.


they pasted a list of all the untied stats crated over

7,000,000 statues.



but asslop still say that he like linkins.

he say that linkin got the biggest and the best statutes.

judge allslop said...

Dr, Isn't that your signature? Don't tell me it's only your autograph or I'll send you over to Judge Roy at Gitmo or is it the Bronx? Law, who needs them. They are only used to prosecute the people we want to get rid of.So many laws so little time.

mogel007 said...

Nemo said: "Do you think it is our trials that perfect us?
____________________________

Well then give us your answer on what perfects us than & back it up with scripture. Don't just complain without anything to back up what you are saying.

Jesus said: "Be ye therefore perfect even as your father in heaven is perfect"

He also said: "Come follow me". So if Jesus isn't the perfect example to follow, than what is?
Did Jesus suffer?

mogel007 said...

Nemo: Of course it is "our trials that perfect us". Nothing is learned without opposing forces, growth and difficulties.

mogel007 said...

Nemo: Did I say that you can have trials WITHOUT SUFFERING?

I'm not saying that Christ's work & redemption is vain or of no worth either. If Christ's redemption was all that was necessary for growth & perfection, we wouldn't have to suffer.

mogel007 said...

Nemo: Try as you might, but you can't cheapen the importance of trials, suffering, or works either by the same token. Both grace & works are talked about. Just because you want to believe that your place in heaven is guaranteed, without any suffering or works on your part is not my problem, it's yours by wresting the scriptures to your own spiritual destruction. Tell me, how does a person "endure to the end, without the importance of suffering, trials & works and how does one "work out their salvation with fear & trembling" if grace is all inclusive of the total gospel?

mogel007 said...

Nemo quotes: "Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?"

No, you are not in & of itself, since WITHOUT the grace of God & his redemption, any works would be in vain, however, "we believed that we are saved by grace, AFTER ALL WE CAN DO."

mogel007 said...

Nemo, it's you that takes one scripture out of context & builds a COMPLETE gospel upon it.

mogel007 said...

Nemo: Why did Jesus say to Peter: "When thou art converted, strenthen thy brethren"?

Peter talked & talked with Jesus & was the chief apostle & certainly had a very close relationship with him.

Did Peter grieve the Holy Ghost that for the longest time, HE JUST DIDN'T GET IT, that he just didn't quite understand the mission of Jesus perfectly & the things he was trying to say? Do you think Jesus was upset & condesending in his demeanor when he said: When thou art converted......

mogel007 said...

"Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?"
______________________________

Obviously the redemption of Christ alone doesn't perfect us is what I get from the scripture.

dr. ira gilac said...

and dun forget,

rember what SOP sayed bout lieing to HS???


case yo forgot, ring up annanis and sophira.


they can set yo strate.


corse, if they can ly to HS, maybe they lie to yo too!

dr. ira gilac said...

rember that SOP also tole yo,

that the verse taht says:


"christ in you, the hope of glory"



christ = HS


IS CHRIST PHYSICALLY IN YOU???

DO YOU HAVE 2 BODIES?

NO. HES IN HEAVEN WITH THE FATHER.


YOU DO HAVE THE HS THO.

SO IN A PERSON, CHRIST = HS


i am gong to have to ring up SOP agin. i no he like to do those deep med on the WORD.

so, this verse above makes me think of a question for him.

if christ in you is the HS.

can/does the HS exist without a body to occupy?

or is it just an omnipresent Spirit???

if it is omnipresent, then as we are always surronded by angles, wheter they be good or evil, then the good angels carry the HS?

can an angel carry the HS?

if he is an angel of the LORD?

or must the HS only be contained in a human body?

do non beleivers have the HS?

even non christians breath, yet only god can give somenone the breathe of life?

???questions??? questions??

hmmm.....


the correct answer will have great future implications, esp. in revelation.


that why i liked SOP, he would go into the think tank to get answers to deep questions that everday christians dont contemplate.

dr. ira gilac said...

TO SOP:


i gong to have to sing up for SKYPE.

yo too far away fo long disace.

can afford to call regualr way u;ntil my HYIPs pay out.

mogel007 said...

Biggest scam:

http://www.wtv-zone.com/Mary/
BIGGESTSCAMINHISTORY.HTML

dr. ira gilac said...

case yo forgot, ring up annanis and sophira.



ann anis???


she realted to the italian woman ho could here raido signals in her head??

her name was ann tenna


mite as well be livng on the planten yoranus....


isnt that wehre juge beenslop come from....yuranus???


LOLOLOL!!!!!

seem like something else come form there too!

neodemes said...

Moogie says:

Nemo quotes: "Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?"

No, you are not in & of itself, since WITHOUT the grace of God & his redemption, any works would be in vain, however, "we believed that we are saved by grace, AFTER ALL WE CAN DO."


Odd, moogs, I can't seem to find "we believed that we are saved by grace, AFTER ALL WE CAN DO." in my Bible.

If you are going to slide heretical mormon documents, like Nephi, in with discussion of Bible verses, have the integrity to source it.

Your problem is, using God's Word alone, you have no case for your errors.

Even SOP understands it is only through the Holy Spirit that believers are made perfect in Christ Jesus, without whom/which we would remain unholy, unrighteous and unworthy of approaching God.

Regarding Peter, Jesus knew that Peter was going to lose heart, and that he was going to man up again, to be the encouragement his weaker brothers needed.

Did Peter grieve the Spirit? No. Did Peter slap Jesus in the face by uttering 'cheap grace'. No.

neodemes said...

Galatians 1:

6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.


Yikes, moogs. Put away your false teachings.

mogel007 said...

Nemo said: Odd, moogs, I can't seem to find "we believed that we are saved by grace, AFTER ALL WE CAN DO." in my Bible.

That's because all of the scriptures that refer to this doctrine, which you reject, like "faith without works is dead", and "not everyone that said, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he THAT DOETH THE WILL OF THE FATHER..." and the dozens of others saying the same things, like even the "Parable of the Talents" ETC. you just plain ignore, & make up your own gospel, because you choose to be cursed in order to preach "another gospel", as the good book says. Take the whole book in context. Funny that you reject many doctrines that are there in the bible.

mogel007 said...

Nemo said: "Even SOP understands it is only through the Holy Spirit that believers are made perfect in Christ Jesus, without whom/which we would remain unholy, unrighteous and unworthy of approaching God."
__________________________________

The power of the Holy ghost still doesn't negate the power of works, like faith & baptism.

mogel007 said...

Nemo said: "Did Peter grieve the Spirit? No."
_______________________________

He denied the Christ, did he not?
Three times even!!!!

mogel007 said...

Nemo said: "Even SOP understands it is only through the Holy Spirit that believers are made perfect in Christ Jesus, without whom/which we would remain unholy, unrighteous and unworthy of approaching God."
_______________________________

I undertand & accept this doctrine too. I understand that the Spirit must cleanse us too & that without the Holy Spirit in us, WE CAN'T SEE OR APPROACH GOD, but the Holy Ghost is not going to do his magic work on us if we aren't worthy of his guidance and power. Of course the Holy Ghost is needed and without it we are nothing, because the Holy Ghost knows all things & can purify & perfect us. I don't discount at all this importance, nor do I discount the grace of God (Jesus).

Can the "unclean spirit" who is NOT cleansed of all unrighteousness through the power of the Holy Ghost, go to Heaven IN A SINFUL STATE? Of course not, otherwise, heaven would be a filthy place to live & God cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance, because God is a perfect being & sin has consequences. Jesus paid the price for sin, but did so on HIS TERMS, not the terms you make up that fits your carnal & selfish mind.

mogel007 said...

Nemo said: "Regarding Peter, Jesus knew that Peter was going to lose heart,"
________________________________

Really? Didn't Jesus ask before Peter's betrayal: "Whom do you say that I am?"
Peter answered: "Thou art the Christ, the son of the living God."
Jesus answered: "Blessed thou Peter for flesh & blood has not revealed this to you but my Father in Heaven."

It wasn't Jesus that revealed this witness to Peter, since Jesus was flesh & blood, so it must have been some other power.

So the Holy Ghost witnessed to Peter that Jesus WAS THE CHRIST, THE MESSIAH. Yet Peter denied Jesus three times, so it seems.

Should we conclude that the Holy Ghost DIDN'T PERFECT his character ENOUGH through this spiritual witness alone that Jesus praised him for?

Or should we conclude that Peter needed more suffering & more character development by his own faith & works, BEFORE he could consider his convictions & dedication to be perfect?

neodemes said...

moogie maintains:

"The power of the Holy ghost still doesn't negate the power of works, like faith & baptism."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Faith does not fit the category of works.

Faith is an attitude, a heart condition, a willingness to believe things not seen.

Baptism, that is, water baptism, has no power. It is merely an act of obedience and a public display of having accepted the saving grace of God.

Baptism by the Spirit occurs at the time of salvation and is certainly no work of ours.

--------------------------------

moogie ponders:

"Nemo said: "Did Peter grieve the Spirit? No."
_______________________________

He denied the Christ, did he not?
Three times even!!!!"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yes, he did. However, we know that the consequence of grieving the Holy Spirit is something that Peter was not subjected to, hence, he obviously did not grieve the holy spirit by his fear driven actions of denying knowing Jesus.

It is significant that Jesus asked Peter three times if he loved him.

That was a slick attempt to turn scripture against me that I directed to you, and answers nothing about adding in your false doctrine which is clearly condemning you and those like you.

I reject nothing in the Bible, only your heretical interpretations and those of your devil-deceived group.

"I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain."

May God reach you in time, moogs.

mogel007 said...

Nemo said: "Did Peter slap Jesus in the face by uttering 'cheap grace'. No
_________________________________

While Jesus LITERALLY paid for the price of sin by taking all sin upon him, in the Garden of Gethsemanae, just prior to the crucifixion, Peter slept & fell asleep and all the apostles in fact, were TOO TIRED to observe the greatest event in human history. If they truly understood what was going on, DON'T YOU THINK THEY WOULD HAVE STAYED AWAKE, or gave it more than what they believed they had?

Their own sleeping & inability to "stay with Jesus for awhile" AS HE DIRECTED, was indeed a slap in the face & Jesus did "tread the winepress alone" as even his friends & closest associates fell asleep letting Jesus do all the work alone without any moral support.

Didn't the apostles weakness of the flesh, cheapen their appreciation of Christ's great gift (ATONEMENT FOR SINS) by falling asleep? I SAY IT DID.

Didn't Peter cheapen his testimony of Christ when he denied him, three different times?

Cheap grace is accepting a great gift without acknowledgment where the gift came from & without acknowledging conditions of this gift & without due appreciation, where we have not enough gratitute to become a better man for this gift by not changing our evil and sinful ways & without doing whatever we can to be worthy of the true Giver & his gift.

Can you accept or appreciate Christ without repentence or baptism?

Can one accept his grace, but disobey his commandments? That would then become "cheap grace" would it not? The gift is cheapened by our own behaviour.

How about those that have abandoned all hope that the Dorean Group will ever prevail by speaking ill of Kurt & Scott and their work and efforts as being meaningless & without any merit?

Haven't all those people cheapened or mocked their great work & efforts by their own behaviour, that Kurt & Scott have been called to do?

Many disgruntled clients and naysayers are metaphorically, unappreciative & STILL ASLEEP, not understanding what is really going on or the importance of the events.

mogel007 said...

Nemo said: "Faith does not fit the category of works."
______________________________

Where does that idea come from?

The bible says: "Faith without works is dead". You cannot separate the two.

God will Judge all men out of the books that have been written & by their works. Rev. 20: 12

God blesses us according to our faith. That is why the Dorean Group will prevail in the end. God will not be mocked.

mogel007 said...

Nemo said: "Baptism by the Spirit occurs at the time of salvation and is certainly no work of ours."
_______________________________

No, baptism of the Spirit only happens "by the laying on of hands" by those in authority to confer the gift. That is scriptural.

mogel007 said...

Nemo said: "Baptism, that is, water baptism, has no power"
______________________

John 3:5 "Except a man be born of the water & the spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

Sounds like a powerful statement of relevance to me that without the ordinance of baptism, WE CANNOT BE SAVED.

So the ordinance of receiving the baptism of the Spirit HAS NO POWER?

You might want to rethink your earlier statement. You said earlier that the Holy Ghost is needed for perfection, which is the baptism of the spirit. You can't receive the baptism of the Spirit without first receiving the baptism of water.

mogel007 said...

Nemo said: "It is significant that Jesus asked Peter three times if he loved him."
____________________________

Maybe jesus's answer is more significant, If you love me, than show it: "Feed my sheep".

His answer could have been:

"Accept my grace", don't you think, instead of "Feed my sheep", which "feeding his sheep" is the mandory things that all Christians that are accepted of him agree to do: Feed the needy, cloth the nacked, visit those in prison, etc. They are all works, not a mere attitude or single event of salvation as you put it that supposedly defines who is saved or who is truly a Christian.

neodemes said...

moogie raises that old standard argument for works - "faith without works is dead"

moogie, if you are willing to hold fast to that one verse and ignore the many verses that clearly say that salvation is NOT by works, than you are obviously doing exactly what you accuse me of...rejecting scripture.

All James was saying is that folks who claim to have faith would be showing evidence of a spirit led existence...fruits of the spirit.

All of our works will be put to a test by fire at judgment. Those worthy of God, those that glorify God will remain, the rest will perish and be for naught, but we who believe will escape with our eternal lives, even if all those things we considered good works are rejected.

1 Cor 3:

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.

19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.


Don't be a wise guy, moogs.

mogel007 said...

The doctrine of "salvation is not by works" only means that without the grace of God, his works to bring about an infinite atonement FOR ALL & resurrection for all, any works of man would be vain & of no worth. No man could be a Saviour, being imperfect by nature, & "all have sinned".

Being imperfect, we all need someone to save us from our sins & pay the penalty for sin.

All men have sinned, & the Saviour needed to be a lamb unblemished by sin, therefore, no works of man could pay or redress all wrongs due to their own sins & man could not pay for the penalty of sin, since such an act needed to be done by a being greater than what man could accomplish, hence without a Saviour, & one who committed no sin, all men needed a perfect Saviour, otherwise, all would have been cut off from God permanently, regardless of any & all the works of man, due to the Fall of Adam & Eve.

Could any man resurrect himself, meaning literally die & live again without Jesus's help & grace? No, only Jesus holds these keys & only Jesus had this ability to resurrect his own body.

We are totally depended upon his grace. There is nothing we can do (works) that will change the importance of his grace. Without his grace & forgiveness, we are still subject to sin & it's penalties, which penalty is being cut off from God forever unless his grace kicks in.

neodemes said...

moogie gets it partially right:

"While Jesus LITERALLY paid for the price of sin by taking all sin upon him..."

TRUE


"...in the Garden of Gethsemanae, just prior to the crucifixion"

FALSE DOCTRINE

Now that that is out of the way, regarding the issue of the apostle's demeanor in the Garden, I think there is a lot they did not 'get' regarding Jesus, until after his resurrection. I would not classify that as cheapening anything.

Your blather regarding Dorean isn't worth commenting on.

You managed to make one post I agree with, [The doctrine of "salvation is not by works" only means that without the grace of God...]in its entirety.

The problem, though, is it directly contradicts what you said about baptism.

neodemes said...

moogie is adamant:

"No, baptism of the Spirit only happens "by the laying on of hands" by those in authority to confer the gift. That is scriptural."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'll bite.

Scripture, please.

neodemes said...

Clarification:

"The problem, though, is it directly contradicts what you said about baptism."

Make that WATER baptism.

dr. ira gilac said...

SOP wold haf sayed taht its true, faith w/o works is daid.


so, christ gives you faith, then you must execute it thru works.


meaning, that how do you demonstrate that you are saved other than telling somenone that you are?

by works....if they hungry, feed them...if they cold, warm them...if they nedd help, help them....


ya cant just tell em', "im saved" so what???

how do it sho?? thro works...


i think that spite of yo disgreemsnets, SOP had said that both yo user ids are saved....mocool and semedoen....

dr. ira gilac said...

pops in yakee stadiam....yep, now a lot of BIG TIEM HYIPs are gong to pay out....pops gave em' the OK....


as i am not cacklick, but i am under no delsion about who relly runs this planten....


no concidence when pops speaks in wome, he speches bdgins with....


"urbi et orbi"

ops never lets yo forget who runs this planten....


urbi et orbi = to the city, and TO THE WORLD


as in THE ONE WORLD ORDER, or as yo no it...


NOVUS ORDO SECULORUM and the ALL PEEING EYE

mogel007 said...

"And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had LAID HIS HANDS UPON THEM, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied" (Acts 19:3-6).

mogel007 said...

Do not neglect the gift that is in you, which was given to you by prophecy with the laying on of the hands of the eldership. Meditate on these things; give yourself entirely to them, that your progress may be evident to all. - 1 Tim. 4:14-15

Therefore I remind you to stir up the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands. - 2Tim.1:6

Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of LAYING ON OF HANDS, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this we will do if God permits. - Heb.6:1-3

mogel007 said...

The “laying on of hands” was also performed on newly baptized persons (Act.8:16-19). Leaders and missionaries of the church were consecrated to service by this Rite (Act.6:6, 13:2-3; 1Tim.4:14, 5:22). The Holy Spirit was stirred . . ., through the “laying on of hands” (Deu.34:9; 2Tim.1:6-7). Power given by prophecy with the “laying on of hands” (1Tim.4:14).

mogel007 said...

Peter and John laid hands on baptized believers in Samaria so they might receive the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:14-19). Paul did the same for some disciples at Ephesus who had been baptized into John the Baptist's baptism (Acts 19:6).

mogel007 said...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Laying_on_of_hands

mogel007 said...

John 15: 16 "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."
______________________________

Being ordained usually happens by the laying on of hands too.
The need for authority to confer spiritual gifts, like the gift of the Holy Ghost, is plain by Jesus's own teachings.

dr. ira gilac said...

...the samaritans...the good samarians...never could get it right....

investor said...

Moogie,

You have provided examples where hands were laid on...very nice.

BUT, you overlooked:

Acts 10:

44While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

45And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.


No laying on of hands and yet, the Holy Spirit was given to all that heard the word.

Also, in 1 Cor. 12 it is stated:

"no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost."

I don't think I'd have much trouble finding oodles of folks saying "Jesus is Lord" without ever having hands laid on them.

I know its hard for someone who believes heaven is unattainable without a temple recommend to comprehend, but the power lays in Jesus Christ and no other.

Once again, nice try, but still no cookie for you.

mogel007 said...

Investor:

There is a difference between receiving the Holy Ghost "for a time", and receiving the "constant companionship of the Holy Ghost".

To receive the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost it requires the laying on of hands for the gift to be with you always, if you are worthy of it.

I understand that many receive the Holy Ghost for guidance, comfort, direction, but the Holy Ghost doesn't tarry with that person long, unless they have received the gift by the proper annointing which comes by the laying on of hands.

As for your other comment, you lack understanding. Mormonism teaches that all those that have not denied the Holy Ghost or haven't committed the unpardonable sin, will eventually all go to a kingdom in Heaven, even those that pass through hell for a time. It may not be the place where God & Christ dwells, but is still a kingdom of glory & still part of the heavenly realm. There are many degrees or many heavens, for we are judged according to our works. Paul was caught up to the
7th Heaven as the scriptures say, so there is not just one place called Heaven.
1 Cor 15: 39-42 talks about different kinds of ressurrected in the next life, one greater than the other & there are at least 3 major kingdoms that differ, just like the sun differs from the moon, and the moon differs from the stars in brightness & glory & power.

In other words, you don't need a temple recommend to go to heaven, so you misquoted what I believe or understand.

I know that might be hard for someone like you that doesn't believe in fairness who believes that all saved Christians deserve the same reward & all have acted equally in their stewardship here on earth.

As in the parable of the talents, that Jesus taught, not all received the same reward & not all have the same degree of faithfulness to the gospel of Jesus Christ or to their Master & we are all "judged according to our works". Naturally peoples works & talents are not equal.

In the afterlife there is a kingdom called the "telestial kingdom", the terrestrial kingdom (middle kingdom) & the celestial kingdon (where God & Christ dwell); all our governed by the 3 persons of the Godhead, & all are considered the realm where heavenly messengers visit and live. Even the lowest kingdom, the telestial kingdom will far surpass & exceed our understanding & enjoyment.

There's a baptism of water & a baptism to receive the constant companionship of the Holy Spirit. The baptisms are only requisite or necessary for entrance into the celestial kingdom & no other kingdom.

dr. ira gilac said...

There is a difference between receiving the Holy Ghost "for a time", and receiving the "constant companionship of the Holy Ghost".



i am not as smart as SOP, and as SOP doesnt come to this blog anymore, i would ask...


"do you think that you can recieve the HS and then lose it?"

Scott from Vineland said...

dr. ira gilac said...
There is a difference between receiving the Holy Ghost "for a time", and receiving the "constant companionship of the Holy Ghost".

i am not as smart as SOP, and as SOP doesnt come to this blog anymore, i would ask...

"do you think that you can recieve the HS and then lose it?"

12:42 PM

;-)

Almost sounds like that Catlick thing, eh doc? "State of Grace" I tink dey calls it.

Better make sure you stays in a "SOG" all the time, case you gets runned over by a bus or somethin.

Scott from Vineland said...

Those buses are heavy. One of them runneth you over, I don't think even dr. ira gilac could save you.

neodemes said...

Just for the record, Investor - Neodemes.

Apparently I logged in with a different google account on the previous post.

neodemes said...

Moogie,

You prattle on with what you were taught by your Mormon faith.

There is no basis in scripture to support their doctrine.

My prayer for you and the millions of deceived like you, is that God sees your hearts and judges you accordingly.

Embracing any doctrine that teaches that you can become gods seems extremely dangerous ground to tread.

Back to the topic at hand, where in scripture does it say some receive the Holy Spirit for a time and then lose it and where does it clearly say the hands MUST be laid on to receive the Holy Spirit?

mogel007 said...

"do you think that you can recieve the HS and then lose it?"
_______________________________

Yes! Can you make a friend & lose him by your actions? Yes again.

The Holy Ghost will not dwell in unholy temples. Having the Holy Ghost is a gift and privilege, not a right or expectation to have his guidance, comfort, and direction at all times if you are living unworthily. That stands to reason.

Nemo, your question really is can God take away spiritual gifts which he gives you?

The answer is yes. Look what he did to the unworthy & unprofitable servant in the Parable of the 10 talents, that was afraid & buried his talent; the Lord and Master took away the "talent" which he originally gave him & was not pleased with him.

Will our lamps be lit at all times? It's up to us, not up to the Holy Ghost. He's not required to stay with us, especially if we are not worthy.

Nemo, if you want everything "clearly stated", than I can't help you understand what others believe. The Bible is not clearly stated on many doctrines. That's why I prefer other sources like "modern revelation" or "other scripture" which of course you clearly reject without study or consideration.

If things were "clearly stated" you wouldn't have over 1,000 Christian denominations that all profess the bible to be true, & all teaching different or conflicting doctrines about subjects such as salvation & grace & you wouldn't be so critical.

The Holy Ghost is suppose to unite people on doctrine & on the truth & the recognition of it to "become one".

It stands to reason since many are divided on doctrinal issues, that the Holy Ghost is not dwelling with them & receiving & keeping the Holy Ghost is not as simple as some believe.

God is not the author of confusion & division. A house divided against itself will fall.

You say: "Embracing any doctrine that teaches that you can become gods seems extremely dangerous ground to tread."

I say: "Embracing any doctrine that teaches that God wants you to be less than he is, is extremely dangerous ground to tread & denies some of his true character attributes of love & mercy."

What Father wants his children to be less than they are or to have less opportunities or education or less happiness & fulfillment than what they have experienced or known?

Dangerous ground to tread? How loving is it to deprive your children of anything that has worth and value?

dr. ira gilac said...

Better make sure you stays in a "SOG" all the time, case you gets runned over by a bus or somethin.





r yo tring to trow me under the buss???

dr. ira gilac said...

an even if it did hoppens, so what????


didnt somenone say in the bible that "life is just like money???"


i tawt i taw a putty cat, i meen i tawt tat somenone name paul in the bible writ that life is like money, when he say "life is but a vapor"


dat guy was smot....he even knew it way back then that it was "vapor money" ;-)


if he wasnt an apostille, he prob would have started the dg group or someting like it 2000 yers ago.

dr. ira gilac said...

"do you think that you can recieve the HS and then lose it?"
_______________________________

Yes! Can you make a friend & lose him by your actions? Yes again.



so then yo can loose yo salivation???


but den deres dose dat say, that if yo loose it, then mabe yo never had it???



as for me, i wont ge t invovled in these discussions.


when i last talk to SOP a wekk ago, he said that just like all the cutting edge info on mtg. elim was provided on this blog, that SOP emptied out his knowledge bin on this blahg and that SOPs work was done. and at this time, he said that whatver people beleive, they believe, and they will not change nor can they be eduacted any further.

he siad that now its too late in the game for that.

he sayed taht they gotta go with what (knowllege) brawt em here.

they now gotta dance wit da girl dat brung em'.


SOP tole me that from here on in there will be very littel more in anyones wisdom increase and for those who has the HS, that it will now take over in them.


they now down the 2 minute warring.....but some are dwon by 2 touchdowns....no choice left but the throw up HYIP MARYs....waht they do in the nfl when they down by 14 or more pts.

hail marys??? did i say that???

mogel007 said...

While Jesus LITERALLY paid for the price of sin by taking all sin upon him..."

TRUE


"...in the Garden of Gethsemanae, just prior to the crucifixion"

FALSE DOCTRINE
_______________________________

If that is false doctrine, than explain why Jesus requested that the apostles stay up with him & not fall asleep? Didn't he also discuss temptation & sin to his apostles when he made this request too & what was the relevance at that particular time? Why did he talk about that? Because he knew that shortly he would suffer all temptation & sin & the penalty of that shortly & he knew it would almost be more than he could bare. !!!!!

Also explain why in this experience in the garden, he "sweat blood from every pore of his body" & why he cried like a child and begged that "this cup be removed from him" & asked the Father "if there was another way"?

He wasn't referring to his eventual crucifixion since many thousands have died this way & have suffered this fate. He didn't have to die by crucifixion because he was God, there could have been another way foreordained. He died by crucifixion because it was prophesied.

Also explain to me why the Father felt it necessary to strengthen him & send an Angel to him AT THAT PARTICULAR TIME while he suffered in the garden? Must have been a unique experience & a very important experience & time if God the Father felt it necessary to send an angel of comfort to comfort even the Christ!

Peter was crucified too along with other apostles & prophets. Does that act alone make them our Saviour?

There are too many unanswered questions that you can't answer with your point of view.

neodemes said...

moogie says:

"He's [Holy Spirit] not required to stay with us, especially if we are not worthy."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If that were true, NO ONE, would even receive salvation/holy spirit.

There is none righteous, no, not one:
There is none that understandeth,
there is none that seeketh after God.

They are all gone out of the way,
they are together become unprofitable;
there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Romans 3:10-12 KJV


You can theorize all you want about what Jesus was experiencing in the Garden, but you have no conclusive doctrine in scripture to support it.

When Jesus was on the cross, He exclaimed: "My God, my God why have you forsaken me?"

In doing so, he was both pointing folks back to Psalm 22, which foretold His death, and living out that moment of being forsaken, being made sin and unable to be in the presence of God.

mogel007 said...

"If that were true, NO ONE, would even receive salvation/holy spirit."

What a strange comment to make for someone that doesn't have a clue to what the atonement was all about or the importance of faith & repentence is all about. The price of sin was paid by Christ's atonement, and mercy is had through conditions of faith & repentence, and receiving the Holy Ghost in order to perfect us, so we are clean & accepted of Him as we accept his atonement & repent of our sins.

So for you to say that no one could be saved is denying the work of the atonement, the grace of God, which stance is certainly an affront to Jesus & if the Spirit is grieved, it is now from your comment of no hope. YOu don't have to be perfect to receive the Holy Ghost. If you are doing your best, & you have a repentant attitute & are meek & lowly of heart, you are certainly worthy to be called a Son or daughter of God.

Yes, Jesus "was forsaken". Even he had the Holy Spirit taken from him for a time, for he had to "trod the winepress all alone".

Nemo said: "You can theorize all you want about what Jesus was experiencing in the Garden, but you have no conclusive doctrine in scripture to support it."

Nemo, and you have no conclusive doctrine to rebutt what I said, & not even an attempt to explain what it means to "have blood ooze from every pour from your body" & why that happened in the Garden of Gethsemanae. This bloody event is the direct result of literally paying the price for sin. Such an event would be a medical mystery or miracle & a first for anyone else to have this happen to them which even you should recognize & admit.

neodemes said...

moogie,

You seem to like wiki, try this on:

Hematidrosis (also called hematohidrosis) He-ma-ti-drosis is a very rare condition in which a human being sweats blood. It may occur when a person is suffering extreme levels of stress, for example, facing his or her own death.[1] Several historical references have been described; notably by Leonardo da Vinci: describing a soldier who sweated blood before battle, as well as descriptions in the Bible, that Jesus experienced hematidrosis when he was praying in the garden of Gethsemane (Luke 22,44).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hematidrosis

If you knew you were about to have the flesh scouged off your back, be nailed to a tree and take on all the vile sins of billions of people, I dae say you might work up a bloody sweat, too.

neodemes said...

Regarding works:

Romans 11

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.