Monday, April 10, 2006

The Free Gift (3/30/06)

I mentioned the cheap grace being the cancer of the church and got the dumb-ass retort of this “ME” generation to prove it. “It’s not cheap it’s free.” I bring this up not as a church lesson but rather as a human lesson applicable to this blog in that “ME” is the blindfold robbing you of wisdom necessary to obtain victory. The me generation measures every cost and event from themselves outward. There is never any consideration of others. Grace is a good example here to display their ignorance. Grace is defined as unmerited favor but that is not synonymous with free. “FREE” is merely the perspective of the benefactor. Christ sold His entire estate to pay the price to make the offer of Grace. It was not free to the giver. His price was high! Secondly it was unmerited but not unconditional for it was attached to faith which is not free. Faith is an action of trusting which is not synonymous with the noun to believe. Actions require the will which is engaged after mental wrangling. Mental wrangling is not free and very much measures the cost of actions taken. Faith in Christ always demands courage which at the very least will cost you your fears and doubts. “By grace through faith” binds these two gifts together. The me perspective never contemplates the cost, thoughts, or intent of another party. You “ME” idiots always rant about your sorry life which is the only truth you can muster. Truth arrives from the consideration of others. You can’t fathom my good will intent because I have to go through a jaded path of peril to deliver it. You don’t like it because it requires a little trust. It may not be fee which is what you are used to and all you think you’re worth. Unlike you I am aware of the suffering of others and always seek the best and fastest remedy not putting my pain above all as a self-centered adolescent. But let’s not talk about me for you are so important.

47 comments:

tcob247 said...

GEE....

Thanks for that spiritual lesson oh great one

We wish we could be more like you, so unselfish in your ways and seeking everyone's general welfare above your own

Us poor pitiful people want to emulate you in your lofty spiritual plane

Please forgive us, for we know not what we do

Lead on, oh Kurt eternal

WillToFight said...

You really do, In you heart of hearts Taco!

Study Dr. Freud!

WillToFight said...

TACO said

We wish we could be more like you, so unselfish in your ways and seeking everyone's general welfare above your own.
_________________
Study Freud or psc. 101 you shoud see yourself. I think it is called "lack of courage?"

tcob247 said...

lack of courage or lack of wanting to scam hundreds of people out of millions of dollars

lololol

WillToFight said...

So TACO should China be able to purchase FannieMae?

Dorean Dumbass said...

Thank you so much Kurt for thinking of me first!

So I guess I can assume you were hiding my money when you sent $ to Latvia. You are my god!

By the way I would like some of my money now. Just make out the check for 3k and as always leave "pay to" blank.

We are winning! I can feel it!

Dorean Dumbass said...

I almost forgot . . .

ZUP DUMBASSES!!!!

Dorean Dumbass said...

We're gonna be rich!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

sd said...

Here's another one of those public private messages....

TO KURT:

Once again, I have been addressed directly, fore it was my "dumb ass retort":
"it's not cheap It's free."

Again I stand by my statement.

No matter how one may try, no one will ever work themselves into heaven. The price has already been paid. Yes Kurt, I agree that the price was high! It was much more than either you or I deserve, or could have ever paid. That happens to be the grace part of the gift. Yes I said GIFT. And this free gift does not have a $6.95 shipping and handling fee. In this particular case free really does mean free.
I'm sure you already know this to be true, the proof is in the completion of your quote “By grace through faith” .... I will complete the verse for you:
are ye saved AND NOT BY WORKS, LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST.

And as for your statement: "Faith is an action of trusting which is not synonymous with the noun to believe."
My bible reads "Believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
That is a complete verse and I don't “believe” that either of us are qualified to add or subtract anything from it. At the least I wouldn’t have “faith” in anyone that would.

I will not resort to name calling and cursing you just because you may see things or interpret things differently that do I.

Kurt, you stated:
"You “ME” idiots always rant about your sorry life which is the only truth you can muster."

Since my “dumb ass retort” is the subject of your conversation, I take it that you consider me the idiot?

You may be correct, but this misguided idiot is one for which Christ thought enough to die for, yet you mark me off as an undeserving "idiot dumb ass".
I sure am glad I only have to live up to my Lord's expectations and not yours.
I sometimes fear that I will be held accountable or judged as I have judged or as I have forgiven. I realise that alone and without grace it will be impossible to live up to even my own expectations much less a perfect example. But for the Grace of God....

Maybe you should reserve your judgment until you obtain all the evidence against a person. Full disclosure might reveal to you that there are others in existence that have been through trials just as hard as the one you are going through now. One never knows what another may be going through. That may be the reason that My Lord reserves judgment for himself because after all he is the only one that knows the whole story; or should I say has full disclosure?

I do the best that I can and most always fall short; I ask forgiveness of my transgressions. I believe, I trust, I have faith. I admit that I do not have much, fore if I had the faith of a mustard seed….
Maybe you can move mountains but my faith has not grown to that level yet. However, I am still working on it.

Even through all your frustrated, misguided rantings and insults, I still stand beside you in this fight against our common foe the bank.
I understand that you too are human, and I understand that the human heart is wicked and full of deceit. That includes your heart as well as mine.

I hope that you will confine all your frustrated insults and name calling and cursing to this blog only, because try as you may, mixing scripture with a wicked boisterous and insulting tongue cannot be the will of my Lord, and surely will not result in a victory over the evil forces at work against us. If you need to vent, then direct your insults at me personally, I’ll gladly field them if it will help prepare you for the upcoming fight.

Contemplate using a more curbed tongue stating fact and not mere personal interpretation. Don't speak from the heart. The facts are on your side if you can just find a graceful way to deliver them they cannot be successfully rebutted as long as you maintain your credibility through control.

Take your frustrations out on me, curse me, call me names, but then enter into the battlefield of the courtroom without loosing control, without allowing temptation to cause you to verbally insult and belittle your foe. Let the facts do your work for you.

I have stated on most all of my direct posts to you that I have not been in agreement with all of your methods but I do support your goal. I pray that you are the one for the job. I pray that you will be filled with the Holy Sprit during your upcoming battle. I pray that neither arrogance, self-gratification, self-righteousness over-confidence or even frustration will get in your way while you are fighting the battle before you.

I pray that you see that the cursing and cussing is coming from the wicked heart of Kurt the human and not from the spirit which I pray dwells within you..

I pray that the traps that have been set by the wicked will not surprise or ensnare you and that you are granted the strength knowledge and wisdom necessary to carry you through to the victory which you claim to already have in your possession.

One last thing, know that while I have questioned some of your methods I support your effort and believe that your original intent was for the good. I pray that you remember that your heart just as mine is not pure; so rely on the spirit.

sd

dorean dumbass said...

Dorean Dumbass said...
I almost forgot . . .

ZUP ME (DUMBASS)!!!!

dorean dumbass said...
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Dorean Dumbass said...

GI's:

We gonna win de war!!!

just-the-facts said...

So...about the news. Only local? One would think that such a "scam" of this magnitude would justify nationwide coverage, wouldn't one? Unless, of course, if someone has something to hide. I mean, this "scam" is in several different states.

Seen it in Utah said...

Just the facts: You greatly flatter yourself as to the importance of the Dorean scam in the grand scheme of things.

seen squat in utah said...

Just the facts: You greatly flatter yourself as to the importance of the state of utah scam in the grand scheme of things.

just-the-facts said...

utah...No not flattery. Just like the "facts" and the obvious. Know about the "grand scheme of things", and alot of things behind the scenes. Thats why I was asking in big picture context. Just making conversation...

tcob247 said...

seen squat.....

You are so smart

You do the neo, justus77 and tcab thing too right?

What a skill
Pure Dorean genius

seen squat in utah said...

just-the-facts said...
utah...No not flattery. Just like the "facts" and the obvious. Know about the "grand scheme of things", and alot of things behind the scenes. Thats why I was asking in big picture context. Just making conversation...

Do you actually think I would be able to provide you "facts" about anything? Remember that I stated the state of utah would not back down and look at what happened to that theory.

hockeydonn said...

It is interesting, Utah, that you say that we greatly flatter ourselves as to the importance of the Dorean scam in the grand scheme of things yet you seem to spend a lot of time reading our inconsequential and insignificant scamming plots and commenting on a regular basis.

It seems that you might see it as important in the grand scheme of things after all.

Your hypocrisy always exposes you.

Let’s play that the Dorean Process really is a scam -k-. This would mean that someone has tried to defraud the entire banking industry right. That seems like a pretty big deal and big news right. I would think so too.

Now, for the sake of argument, lets play like the Dorean Process really isn't a fraud and everything they say and do is true. I would classify the fraud perpetrated against the world as pretty big news right. I would agree with that as well.

Further, I see much more worthless news on the T.V. now. I mean take for instance the Michael Jackson trial, this was nothing more than entertainment news. It was completely inconsequential to you or me yet the news castors put it on the front page and in the highlights. So, it seems to me that even some nut claiming fraud has been commited by banks on the entire world would be big news. Even if it is just in the supermarket tabloids. So one would have to ask, “Why is this case being quieted?"

I think that is a logical question that should be asked. Does it, by necessity, prove that Dorean is right or wrong? I don't think so, but it does seem suspicious to me and rather odd.

Personally I believe that the majority of people would be outraged if the news castors put Kurt in the spotlight. Not because the people would take offense to the idea of accusing their best friend (the bankers, government and the courts) of mass fraud, but because I believe that the people would begin to awake to, and question, the system. Now, if I had something to hide I would let the least amount out about Kurt Johnson as possible.

Anyway, just a bit of common sense we ought to keep in mind.

tcob248 said...

seen squat.....

You are so smart, I want to be like you.

You do the neo, justus77 and tcab thing too right, and I wish that was that creative?

What a skill
Pure Dorean genius, that I don't possess, which is why I don't belong in the process and requested out.

tcob247 said...

thanks for making my point asshole

what are you 6 years old?

hockeydonn said...

Taco,

Don't let it get you all upset so you start swearing.

See, I have this Four year old and she sometimes swears.

(Disclaimer: She is a foster child of mine, so ofcourse she didn't learn it from me ;o))

When the foul mouth gets too bad she gets a little taste of soap to help clean her mouth up followed by an outpour of love.

When you, or any of the rest, resort to the foul language. I ussually ask the question,
"what are you 4 years old?"

Never-the-less, I still love you and hope you come around.

tcob248 said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
hockeydonn said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
tcob248 said...

thanks for making my point that I take it in the asshole

were you aware that i like 6 year olds?

hockeydonn said...

Ohhhh, I get it tcob24(8). You clever little thing you.

tcob247 said...

My apologies for the foul language

You are right hockey

I shouldnt stoop to their level

(although our leader Kurt advocates this kind of language)

tcob248 said...

tcob247 said...
My apologies for the foul language, again since this is not the first time i've used foul language un-provoked.

You are right hockey

I shouldnt stoop to their level, even though this comment makes me seem delusional as i am the only person who swore so far on this thread.

(although our leader Kurt advocates this kind of language, but I obviously advocate it too, or i wouldn't have used it, so now I am a hypocrite)

tcob247 said...

you got nothin else to do with your time Farrel?

complainers suck said...

tcob247 said...
you got nothin else to do with your time Farrel?

One could say the same about you.

mogel said...

SD said: “By grace through faith” .... I will complete the verse for you:
are ye saved AND NOT BY WORKS, LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST."

No man could have performed the atonement. Any works of man would fall short of saving all mankind or himself, for all mankind has sinned so man can never boast. No man can save himself alone. Because of this man is permananetly separated from God because God cannot look upon sin with any tolerance & sin separates man from God permanently without an atonement & subjects himself to the whims of the Devil & there is a universal law that says there is a price to be paid for sin & no unclean being can dwell with God. Jesus paid that price of sin because justice demands this & because God is just & this & this cost was paid at a great cost.

However, this gift is not free & requires effort on our parts & this gift is not unconditional. We are not forgiven unconditionally. That is what the above statement means. Do you as an unperfect individual forgive unconditionally & do this for everyone with no strings attached? If you sin & make no restitution, should you be forgiven? Doesn't this rob justice if this were so? Can mercy rob justice?

The reason I bring these things up is that is that in the book of James it says: "Faith WITHOUT WORKS is dead". How many of us have DEAD FAITH? Also in the Book of Phillipians it says: "Work out your salvation with fear & trembling". The scriptures also say that "EVEN THE DEVILS BELIEVE & TREMBLE." Are they saved too simply by their belief & pure knowlege that Jesus is the Christ?

This is similiar to what Kurt is saying. Faith is an action verb. It requires work & trust and is not easy & is certainly not free, nor is is possessed by everyone.

Everyone will go to heaven except the "sons of perdition" for God saves ALL except them. This is why salvation is universal or free for everyone is going to heaven except the sons of perdition who are few comparatively speaking. The problem with understanding that statement is that there are different degrees or glories or different places of heaven or different places of merit in the afterlife. There is the celestial heaven, there is the terrestrial heaven, & there is the telestial heaven, all places are under the dominion of God & Jesus.

Not all resurrected bodies are equal or the same & we ALL will be resurrected through the grace of Jesus & not all resurrections will be the same: 1 Cor Chapt. 13. This chapter tells us that there are three different places or 3 different Heavens as their are different rewards in the resurrection, there are celestial bodies, terrestrial bodies & telestial bodies. Each different body having different powers & abilities which are not equal. We all will possess one of those types of bodies in the resurrection, (exception, sons of perdition), hence we are all saved in one sense or in one definition. Everyone will be resurrected & live again, again this is a gift, not by any merit of man. Jesus's resurrection paved the way for everyone's resurrection, again a free gift. Resurrection is not always salvation though. Jesus saved us from being forever in the dominion of the Devil due to sin.

If God is just & fair, he will give different rewards based upon our faith & actions, & our devotion to him in keeping his commandments, for "he will judge us according to our works." (Revelations 20:12). "If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments". Again, this demands action. The problem is that people misunderstand the scriptures & think that salvation can either refer to the universal gift of the resurrection or it can refer to the greatest reward given by God which requires faith which requires actions, the same actions that can move mountains. Salvation has two different meanings & it is important to understand what definition is being talked about in any particular scripture, for each definition of salvation is totally different. This is where the arguments and confusions come into play & this is why grace has been greatly misunderstood & perverted in the Christian world. YOu can't use just one scripture & have it apply to the conclusions that you draw. One must take all of the scriptures & make them all be congruent to each other.

just-the-facts said...

Sorry taco...I didn't say "seen" anything. I said, "behind the scenes". And yes I've tried to get booksmart in the past few months, reading and studying the laws and the many different avenues of information that is on the web. Most is pretty straight forward. Even a judge could see it. (without blinders)

tcob247 said...

just the facts...

You are talking to the wrong person

Seen it in Utah said...
Just the facts: You greatly flatter yourself as to the importance of the Dorean scam in the grand scheme of things.



Complainers suck...

At least I have a choice with what to do with my free time

hockeydonn said...

Mogel,

Good reading.

However, I noticed an inconsequential statement that I may have interpreted wrongly.

You said: We all will possess one of those types of bodies in the resurrection, (exception, sons of perdition), hence we are all saved in one sense or in one definition.

The "except sons of perdition" part I believe to be false. All who have kept their first estate will be resurrected (see footnotes in D&C 76:39). However, those of perdition will be cast out at their resurrection. We do not know at what point this will happen for perdition but "it had been better for them never to have been born."

Like I said, this tidbit is really of no consequence to your point but I had recently studied it and found this out.

It is bold to speak truth. You have done it and are to be commended.

Thanks

you will know them by their fruit said...

Doreanites debating grace. Now I have seen everything.

Why not present God a bond for your soul?

If he doesn't respond in said amount of time then your soul is yours "free and clear".

Justice7777777 said...
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Justice7777777 said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
tcob247 said...

I think they are scheduled to get out on June 1st 2056

Awesome post fruit
You are exactly right

itsmeson said...

Well it was good seeing you guys. I truely felt bad for the both of you, not because of you are in jail, but because I see what you are trying to accomplish and nothing seems to be working. I dont agree with anything you guys are doing, but i see pain of people when they have to go through jail. I still say repent and all will be restored. Hey what do you have to lose. There is always compromising.

just-the-facts said...

I apologize...

Let's see. The news question kinda struck a nerve. How about, since everyone knows the dollar is worthless and global markets are turning to Euros. For the sake of discussion, would it be safe to say that a fraudulant multi-trillion dollar mortgage industry might be something that should not be made public? especially on the international scene.

sd said...

Mogel,

If you had just read a little further you could have gleaned from my last post that I too place a high value on the gift but as I stated before it still remains FREE of cost.
True faith may be evidenced through some action but faith (noun or verb) is not payment for a gift.

You said: “You can't use just one scripture & have it apply to the conclusions that you draw”

my response:

Deductive reasoning dictates that:
The value of a gift has nothing to do with a purchase price.
My understanding of the definition of a gift leads me to the conclusion that If there is a price then it isn’t a gift.
A child receives a birthday present at no cost to him. The giver of the gift hopes that the child will accept the gift and appreciate it. True appreciation is shown through the actions of the child after receiving the gift. If the gift is tossed aside then witnesses know by the childs actions that little value was placed on the gift.
If on the other hand the child truly cherishes the gift, his actions following acceptance will bear witness to the value he has placed upon the gift. He can thank the giver, he can jump for joy, he can smile and laugh, he could even mow the givers lawn but none of these acts are payment for the gift, they are just evidence of the degree of gratitude the reciever has for the giver of the gift.
Neither of these examples has the child paying for the gift. The Giver already paid for it, if the child tries to buy it from the giver then he really isn’t accepting what is being offered.

You asked: “Are they saved too simply by their belief & pure knowledge that Jesus is the Christ?”

My Response: No, knowledge and acceptance are two different things. But acceptance has nothing to do with buying or paying for anything.

The value of a gift is irrelevant to the acceptance of a gift. The cost to the receiver is still zero whether he appreciates it or not.
The consequences of his acceptance or rejection is another issue entirely.
An outsider may be able to see that true appreciation was in fact evidenced because of some action taken on the part of the receiver. This is where ”you will know them by their fruit” comes in.

Also “faith without works is dead” is just another way of saying that True faith is evidenced by the actions of the believer. It does not mean that the believer is buying and or paying for his gift. Remember the thief on the adjacent cross? He didn’t have much time for works now did he? Yet the FREE gift was accepted and his faith was rewarded
If anyone thinks any human ability or work would ever or could ever generate pay for such a gift then I suggest that you dwell on this subject a little further.
I state again that I agree “faith without works is dead” but the works that follow acceptance of the FREE gift is just proof that the belief is real, it is not payment for grace. The value of the gift is a totally different subject.

mogel said...

Hockeydon: You are correct. All will be resurrected even sons of perdition that have a mortal body. Sons of perdition are not saved though since they go to no kingdonm of glory.

sd said...

Maybe this one will get someone fired up...

I stated earlier that: "knowledge and acceptance are two different things"

The proof that this statement is true is evidenced daily by the actions and comments of the naysayers of this blog.

They have been presented the facts and most have firsthand knowledge that the banks are perpetrating one of the biggest scams in the history of the world but even with that knowledge they refuse to accept it as truth and fight against it.

neodemes said...

If you want to fight bank scams, go for it.

But

Don't use the perception of bank scams as an excuse to fill Latvian bank accounts, at the cost of those conned into your scams.

Its just wrong.

neodemes said...

If you want to fight bank scams, go for it.

But

Don't use the perception of bank scams as an excuse to fill Latvian bank accounts, at the cost of those conned into your scams.

Its just wrong.

mogel said...

Neodemesne: How many times do you need to be told, monies were put in Latvia solely because the American banks kept illegally freezing their bank accounts by the FBI. It wasn't until after several bank accounts or large amounts of monies were seized that monies were put offshore. If it was intended to scam people's monies, all monies would have been deposited there from the beginning which they weren't. They weren't put there to defraud people. Talk about being a "spin doctor". YOu are the king in that department. Keep digging your hole deeper by your words, oh thou blind & proud one.

neodemes said...

Like I should believe you, Moogie?

LOL