Saturday, July 08, 2006

Utopia

I was asked to describe the Utopia of the mortgage industry. I liked the challenge but had to admit it an idea not possible. As long as the industry is built around debt based currency there is no Utopia. The Federal Reserve Note or digital equivalent credit are of no value and not redeemable into any value. Here’s the problem; if something has no value and is beyond redemption what is there to salvage let alone perfect? Is there a compromise, a coexistence of truth and a lie? There can only be movement one direction at a time. If the truth is prevailing the lie diminishes in equal proportions. Can Dorean bring absolute truth, I think not. I do think it can change the prevailing directional flow. Is this Utopia? No! Perhaps it is a necessary step for more powerful champions to leap from. I know it is destiny for this moment in history and that is the extent of my vision. Utopia must wait until evil has completed its course. We will see this in my lifetime. Do we sit like corks subject to every whim of the evil current or like a rock make our presence known and make a few ripples or back current? This is no Utopia but to me appears as duty. Utopia is not built on confidence but builds confidence itself. It is valuable itself and not a token, chit or note absent of value. Utopia may be dream in the land of fiction but exist in reality. Perhaps the entrance to Utopia is the same gate that exits fiction.

51 comments:

son of a prophet said...

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neodemes said...

"Utopia may be dream in the land of fiction but exist in reality."

Really? Where in reality does it exist.

I use Federal Reseve notes everyday. They buy real food for my family's table, also purchased with FRNs, earned by the real value of my labor.

They are the same notes you collected from each and every so-called client and then sent to an offshore bank somewhere? Why did you deposit something of no value, Kurt?

You talk out both sides of your face, and neither makes sense.

"Perhaps it is a necessary step for more powerful champions to leap from."

More powerful than you, God's chosen one, given this mission 20 years prior? How can this be?

mogel said...

"Utopia may be dream in the land of fiction but exist in reality."

Really? Where in reality does it exist.
___________________________________
Nemo, your reality of utopia exists in the firey pit that you underestimate so much but this utopia can still be a reality. All you have to do is believe. It's that simple. Your utopian reality is to hear the words, "I never knew you. "Depart from me hence into outer darkness built on your fictitious dreams". Your utopia won't be on a planet made by your own hands, but rather a black hole made out of no organization whatsoever. Your utopia is being a legend in your own mind. Your utopian place is a fictitious dream. A dream that all Mormons will be exterminated, a utopian dream that all Doreans are convicted & brought to misjustice, a utopian dream of a free America, and a dream of being a saved Christian in ignorance. This utopia is in the land of Oz. Just follow the yellow brick road. You'll find it because it's there right in front of your nose. Just click your heels three times and say, "There's no place like utopia, there's no place like utopia, there's no place like utopia, & then suddenly you'll be right at home in Utopia, Kansas.

mogel said...

Really? Where in reality does it exist.

UTOPIA, KANSAS, YOUR HOME TOWN.

I use Federal Reseve notes everyday. They buy real food for my family's table, also purchased with FRNs, earned by the real value of my labor.

STEALING WORKS REALLY WELL TOO. WHOEVER SAID STEALING WASN'T HARD WORK NEVER LEARNED HOW DIFFICULT IT IS TO COVER ONE LIE AFTER ANOTHER. I TRIED PAYING THE GROCERY STORE WITH CHUCKY CHEESE TOKENS AS PAYMENT ONCE, BUT THE STORES DON'T ACCEPT THEM ANYMORE.

They are the same notes you collected from each and every so-called client and then sent to an offshore bank somewhere? Why did you deposit something of no value, Kurt?

NO, THEY WERE CASHIERS CHECKS. FEDERAL RESERVE NOTES ARE THE ONE'S THAT THE US TREASURY PRINTS.

You talk out both sides of your face, and neither makes sense.

WELL AT LEAST IT'S A LANGUAGE YOU CAN APPRECIATE. AT LEAST HE ISN'T TALKING OUT OF BOTH HOLES.

THAT IS A SUBJECT WHICH YOU ARE AN AUTHORITY, I HAVE TO ADMIT. YOU HAVE THE MOST EXPERIENCE THERE, NEMO, I CONCEDE ON THAT ONE.

"Perhaps it is a necessary step for more powerful champions to leap from."

More powerful than you, God's chosen one, given this mission 20 years prior? How can this be?

YEA, HAVEN'T YOU HEARD? GOD IS SENDING MOSES IN AS A PINCH HITTER IF NEEDED. TRY TO KEEP UP.

son of a prophet said...

WILL IT ALL MATTER???

at the rate this coutry is going, will it matter how many fed reserve nots we have, or gold, or silver or ??? for that matter???

some alternative media are reporting tht the korean missile flew for over 7 minutes, not 42 secs.

it seems like WWIII which officially began on 9/11 is about to get started in earnest.

from a book by an illuminati defector:

WWIII is begins when....

1) korea invades s. korea

2) china invades taiwan

3) middle east explodes with arab countries invading israel

???time to move to costa rica, buy a house and put it in another ME program??

make NO mistake about it, YOU have not heard the end of the korean missle business. the ptb are preaparing the sheeple for something BIG coming soon to a theater near you.

may the HS guide you thru it sagely...i mean safely. on second thought, maybe i should say sagely.....


mogle and neo, time to kiss and make up, as time grows VERY short.... :-)

son of a prophet said...

N.K. long-range missile flew for 7 minutes, not 42 seconds: S.Korean military officials reveal



YONHAP News


SEOUL, July 6 (Yonhap) -- North Korea's long-range Taepodong-2 missile travelled for about 7 minutes after liftoff before it plunged into the East Sea, a top South Korean military officer said Thursday.

The North's multistage missile was initially believed to have gone down 42 seconds after it blasted off from its launching pad in the reclusive country on Wednesday, sparking questions over whether the flight was a technical failure or was aborted.

neodemes said...

SOP said:
"mogle and neo, time to kiss and make up, as time grows VERY short.... :-)"

aw, shucks. moogie knows I love him, right brother man?

Why else would I be concerned about his Salvation?

As for your latest points, moogie:

I don't want to exterminate anyone, including Mormons. I just don't want folks to believe that the Mormon 4-lane highway = Jesus' footpath to Salvation. Mormon doctrine flies in the face of the Word of God, just as the other cults do.

Were those Cashiers Checks purchased with Chucky Cheese tokens? Somehow, I think your worthless FRNs bought them and when they were cashed were converted back to FRNs. Nice try though.

"STEALING WORKS REALLY WELL TOO. WHOEVER SAID STEALING WASN'T HARD WORK NEVER LEARNED HOW DIFFICULT IT IS TO COVER ONE LIE AFTER ANOTHER."

Sounds like the voice of experience, moogie. Careful not to get caught, although you can start your very own blog and whine about the injustice system if you do. Not to worry, I'll visit your blog, too.

SOP, how far did the missle travel, in 7 minutes, in relation to Hawaii, any idea?

Sounds like we should be testing our defense system, don't it?

Might be time to replace the tin foil beanies with hard hats, y'all.

mogel said...

mogle and neo, time to kiss and make up, as time grows VERY short.... :-)
_____________________________
Nemo has no worries, he'll be in the rapture, saved from all of that.

neodemes said...

One day I will be raptured, but North Korea lobbing missles around doesn't mean the end times are here.

They need to quit messing around, though. Things could get ugly. :-O

neodemes said...

You might want to get right with God before the rapture, though, moogie. We'd hate to lose you to false doctrines.

mogel said...

You might want to get right with God before the rapture, though, moogie. We'd hate to lose you to false doctrines.
_____________________________
Back at you, brother. :o)

son of a prophet said...

mog and neo,

nice when we all love one 'nother, aint it??


"...love your enemies; bless those who persecute you and despise you and use you; of what good is it to love only those that love you; anyone can do this, but to love those who hate you...."


now that is the mark of a TRUE christian (with HS power); 'cause the only way you can love someone who hates you is if the HS has given you this power, otherwise, you cant possibly do this.....

if you dont believe it, then walk up to someone and start beating on them, and see HOW MUCH THEY LOVE YOU!! ;-]

neodemes said...

mogel said...

You might want to get right with God before the rapture, though, moogie. We'd hate to lose you to false doctrines.
_____________________________
Back at you, brother. :o)

**********************************

huh? Me lost to false doctrines? Can this be possible?

OK. Help me understand...

From what I've read part of what I should believe is that we were all brothers and sisters in heaven before we were born to this earth? Is that what you believe?

neodemes said...

mogel said:

I GUESSED YOU MISSED THE PART IN THE BIBLE WHERE IT SAID IN THE GARDEN OF GETHSEMANE THAT JESUS SWEAT GREAT DROPS OF BLOOD. IS THAT ALSO SHOCKING TO YOU? THAT'S WHERE THE ATONEMENT TOOK PLACE, NOT ON THE CROSS. MANY PEOPLE HAVE BEEN CRUCIFIED OVER THE CENTURIES, BUT THAT DOESN'T MAKE THEM A SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD. JESUS COULD HAVE DIED ANOTHER WAY & STILL WOULD HAVE BEEN THE SAVIOUR. CRUCIFIXION WASN'T NECESSARY, IT WAS ONLY NECESSARY THAT HE DIED AFTER HIS VICTORY OVER THE DEVIL THE NIGHT BEFORE IN GETHSEMANE BY TAKING UPON HIMSELF THE SINS OF THE WORLD & THE PENALTY OF THOSE SINS.

****************************
mogel, it is clearly stated over and over in the Bible that Christ died for our sins.

Paul addresses the issue of those who discount the importance of Christ's sacrafice;

1Cr 1:18
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.


Is the preaching of the cross foolishness to Mormons? It appears so. What then is implied of the fate of Mormons (as well as others to whom the preaching of the cross is foolishness)?

I really had not given much thought as to what Mormonism was all about. After all, they use the name Jesus Christ in their more modern LDS name, which gives the impression they must somehow be Christian and, therefore, saved by the blood of the Lamb.

I still know little about the Mormons, but what I have gleaned thus far leads me to believe that they are the type of organization that Paul warns us against in the Gospels.

down but not out said...

Neo,

Could you point out where in the Bible it spells out that whole rapture deal? I can't seem to find it.

~~The Swami~~~ said...

I'm sitting in front of the computer with a pair of panty hose on my head because I have a headache. Is this a sign that the end times are near? HOSEa in the highest?

mogel said...

From what I've read part of what I should believe is that we were all brothers and sisters in heaven before we were born to this earth? Is that what you believe?
___________________________
Yes, Nemo, that's why he is called our Heavenly Father, because God the Father is the Father of all Spirit Beings. Why do you think Jesus was called "The Firstborn"? Have you ever heard the expression: "Church of the Firstborn"? He was literally the first Spirit born & because of that was able to spiritually advance faster than the rest of us due to having more time. Haven't you ever heard the expression an "old spirit"?

mogel said...

Down But Not out: Neo,

Could you point out where in the Bible it spells out that whole rapture deal? I can't seem to find it.
____________________________
It comes from the scripture that says "two will be in the field working, and one will be taken and the other one left".

Course the rapture crazed Christians don't understand that the one that was taken was the one that was destroyed by fire or other catastrophe at the 2nd coming. They got it TOTALLY BACKWARDS. You see the one that was left and NOT TAKEN was the one that ISN'T destroyed AND KILLED, but stays on earth longer through the great millenium that has been spoken of & prophesied which is a 1000 years of peace on the earth with Jesus as the governmental & religious leader and King and lawgiver.

mogel said...

Nemo: The cross is a symbol of Christ's death. Mormons don't put crosses on any of their churches because we worthip the living Christ, not the dead Christ. A cross is also a symbol of death. The cross was where he died where he made a triump over 3 days later, so in that sense the cross is a reminder of Jesus's power that only he held.

Many have been crucified & died upon crosses throughout the centuries. Christ triumphed over death through his ressurection. The resurrection is the living Christ. The Mormons don't deny the importance of the 2nd greatest event in human history which was His resurrection. His ressurection makes everyone's ressurection possible. That is also another definition of salvation, salvation having more than one meaning.

The greatest event was the atonement, which didn't take place on the cross. Read the account in the Garden of Gethsemane. Notice an angel was sent to strengthen him. No angel strengthened him on the cross. On the cross he exclaimed to the Father: "Why hast thou forsaken me." Obviously, the event in the garden was more important. That's why Jesus was so wroth at his disciples because he knew what he was about to go through, but they all fell asleep during the greatest event in human history, unaware of what took place. Such irony!!! How can you sweat great drops of blood by praying & having blood come out from every pore & become physically & spiritually exhausted beyond comprehension? Something unearthly & super natural & important was going on during that time. Notice Christ was arrested shortly after this. Remember Christ's work couldn't be ruined until he did what he came to Earth to do & no force on earth could have prevented that, not even the government or those that work for the government.

mogel said...

Nemo: Death is "separation from God." Sin brought death into the physical world. Jesus paid for all sins by tasting death which is death of the Spirit which is separation from God the Father. Yes Jesus died in the sense he was totally separated from the Father's companionship during the atonement ordeal. It led him to say: "Why hast thou forsaken me". He spiritually died. "I have trodden the winepress alone." Jesus all by himself paid the penalty of sin, a spiritual price none of us can understand right now. Remember Jesus chose to die first spiritually, and then physically. Both the atonement & his death AND resurrection were necessary to complete the salvation process for us. All those ressurrected in essence are saved. Salvation is not exaltation. Some will be saved to the telestial kingdom, some will be saved to the terrestrial kingdom, & some will be saved to the celestial kingdom. Those saved in the celestial kingdom & have the "continuation of the lives" also have exaltation which is God's greatest gift as it it sometimes called.

son of a prophet said...

in case anyone is interested, my interpretation of scripture tells me that there will be a rapture.

this will come before the tribulation which is gods wrath against man.

bible says...."i will keep you from the hour of temptation that shall come to try the whole earth..."

the saints (true believers) are held blameless, as their belief in yeshua gets them off the hook, thus yeshua takes them out before the appearance of the a/c, whom the whole earth will be forced to worship. as christians cannot do this, yeshua takes them out ahead of time.

i have debated this many times in many different forums and came to the conclusion that what you believe is what you believe and its useless to quote scripture to make ones point, as contradicting ineterpretaions can be made.

its just up to the HS what interpretaion you are ready to receive and are qualified to understand.

but during the "time of jacobs trouble" god will be dealing strictly with jews.

best book, bar none, that i have ever read on the future events (and i have read many) is

"THINGS TO COME" by J. DWIGHT PENTECOST

very old, but if you can get a copy, its worht its weight in gold; laid out really clear for anyone to understand.

neodemes said...

down but not out said...

Neo,

Could you point out where in the Bible it spells out that whole rapture deal? I can't seem to find it.

********************************

You won't find the word rapture in the bible.

You will find a slew of references to what is referred to as the rapture here - (I grabbed it from a google search and have no idea as to the main content of the underlying domain) - A Bible Study on the Rapture

neodemes said...

mogel said...

From what I've read part of what I should believe is that we were all brothers and sisters in heaven before we were born to this earth? Is that what you believe?
___________________________
Yes, Nemo, that's why he is called our Heavenly Father, because God the Father is the Father of all Spirit Beings. Why do you think Jesus was called "The Firstborn"? Have you ever heard the expression: "Church of the Firstborn"? He was literally the first Spirit born & because of that was able to spiritually advance faster than the rest of us due to having more time. Haven't you ever heard the expression an "old spirit"?

************************

old spirit? I don't think so.

O.K. - Does that mean that you, me, and Jesus, Mary, Lucifer, etc, were all brothers and sisters?

neodemes said...

mogel said:

It led him to say: "Why hast thou forsaken me"

*********************************

During His time, it was common practice for rabbis to recite the opening lines of scripture - folks were well versed enough to know the scripture in full and in context.

Hence, He is calling to mind:

Psalm 22:1
My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

This psalm prophecied the death of Christ, on the cross, long before crucifixion was practiced

14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels. 15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death. 16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. 17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me. 18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

There is no basis to believe atonement happend in the Garden. It is mentioned, what, twice in the bible? How much more emphasis is placed on the cross?

neodemes said...

Things to Come : A Study in Biblical Eschatology by Dr. J. Dwight Pentecost (Hardcover - Aug 1, 1965)

son of a prophet said...

from neos hypertext site on PENTECOSTs "THINGS TO COME"...




Still the best book on the end times, November 5, 1999
Reviewer: Marc Axelrod (Potter, Wi USA) - See all my reviews

This is a very thorough study of the end times. The first part of the book is a defense of the grammatical-historical interpretation of Bible prophecy. Then Pentecost dives right in with a survey of the four major biblical covenants, and a study of Israel in prophecy, the Gentiles in prophecy, and the church in prophecy. He includes a detailed discussion of the timing of the rapture, the events of the seven year tribulation period, and the second coming of Christ, followed by the 1000 year Millennial reign of Christ. He then has a helpful section about the eternal state.

It must be stated that this is a 600 page heavy duty textbook. It is not like reading a Frank Peretti novel or a Left Behind book. This is for the hard core Bible prophecy student, and it is still THE end times book to get. Pray that someone will wake up and revise it for the 21st century and include chapters critiquing the prewrath rapture view and the preterist view.

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13 of 16 people found the following review helpful:

Priceless foundation for students of Biblical prophecy., May 7, 2003
Reviewer: M. D Roberts (Gwent, United Kingdom) - See all my reviews

This is a priceless foundation for anyone interested in, or embarking upon a study of Biblical prophecy.
This book has correctly been described as being of encylopaedic proportions. Indeed, comprising of over 600 pages, it is as comprehensive a study in Biblical prophecy as there is currently available.

I was first drawn to the works of Dwight Pentecost through his excellent book entitled "Your Adversary The Devil". The manner of his approach to the latter subject and the provision of such a well written and in-depth discussion really impressed me.

Having studied Biblical prophecy for many years, I was thrilled to discover that Pentecost had also written a comprehensive study on Bible prophecy as well. Having now acquired this work, I have not been disappointed.

Other reviewers here have commendably outlined in detail the topics covered in this study so I will not go along that path. Suffice to say that the content is exemplary.

Pentecost approaches Biblical prophecy and the End Times' from the perspective of a Pre-Tribulation' Rapture of the Church. He eloquently presents his own interpretation of what many see as perhaps the controversial subject of the timing of the Rapture itself.

I have read a number of books where individual authors disagree about the latter aspect of prophecy. Taking everything into consideration, I personally feel that this controversial' issue should be approached and discussed prayerfully and in love, not allowing the matter to prove divisive and thus giving ground to the Adversary.

With the latter in mind, may I respectfully suggest that students of Biblical prophecy also make reference to another excellent, encyclopaedic study, (itself exceeding 500 pages) by Robert Van Kampen, entitled "The Sign". Van Kampen's study is also a thorough, in-depth study, yet approaches the Rapture with a slightly different interpretation which places it within the Tribulation itself. Anyone basing their studies on these two books will find an absolute wealth of information at their fingertips to assist them with their research.

In closing perhaps I could also suggest another extremely useful aid to study, in the book by John F. Walvoord entitled "Every Prophecy Of The Bible". Thank you.

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5 of 5 people found the following review helpful:

Definitive work in Dispensational Eschatology, October 28, 2005
Reviewer: B. Breen "canuckster1127" (Sterling, VA USA) - See all my reviews

I read this book as a requirement to ordination back in the late 1980's. It was not an easy work to read through. It is encyclopedic in nature and very academic and dry in terms of it's approach although no doubt, one could find it exciting if you are passionate about dispensational eschatology. (I'm not sure I want meet someone like that, but I'm sure there must be a few out there!) ;)

The value of the book is as a reference and means to study for the student or pastor who wishes to thoroughly work through the Biblical references.

Don't expect very much ambiguity on the part of Dwight Pentecost. You will get dogmatic and definitive answers to the different minute elements of prophesy and eschatology (study of the end times) with little or no room for differing approaches and understandings. It is not a work to go to if you are looking for a spectrum of differing opinions. You will get dispensational, premillennial, pre-trib doctrine and it will be presented to you as unassailably true.

The issue in rating the value of the book is not whether you agree or disagree with the positions espoused. The value is that you will get what the book advertises itself to be and know what the foundation is for the teaching presented.

If you want a broader view you must look elsewhere or supplement your reading with other sources. Indeed, any serious student should do that, even those in primary agreement with Pentecost's exhaustive and dogmatic positions.

4 stars given instead of 5, not because of the qualities of the book, but because even an academic tome of this nature could have been written to read easier and smoother. Sympathies are extended to any who are required to read it from cover to cover. As a reference it is an important and valuable work for any student of the eschaton to have in their reference library, which is where it rightfully belongs.

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4 of 7 people found the following review helpful:

Clearly the most definitive work on the Last Days, May 3, 2005
Reviewer: Eugene V. Shaparenko (Pismo Beach, CA.) - See all my reviews

With all sorts of excellent material on the last days now on bookshelves, this is the one I still turn to to understand both the basics and advanced aspects of each segment of the last days.

I am persuaded that Dr. Pentacost was truly led by the Spirit of God in penning this impressive volume.

It will always be attacked by various seminarians, liberals, moderates and disoriented evangelical Christians as being too "cut and dried" for general consumption.

Pentacost clearly holds his positions by not bending to the type of random spiritualization and allegorical interpretations which have come to characterize many of the "different gospels" which are being developed by various intelligencia who are claiming "additional insight" into the plain Word of God.

An indispensible part of both pastor and layperson's libraries.

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7 of 30 people found the following review helpful:

It's impressive if you can't read sources...., April 23, 2005
Reviewer: Samuel M Smith (Fort Worth, TX United States) - See all my reviews

I read this book as a requirement for a class in eschatology in seminary. Pentecost block-quotes other authors for about 60 percent of his text, at which point he could've just provided a bibliography. There is little originality in thought here. Pentecost surveys the narrow world of premillenial dispensationalism and says anyone who disagrees with his viewpoint does not take the text "literally" and ignores the "clear, plain meaning of scripture." But his hermeneutic is a bit inconsistent. He insists that various parts of the apocalyptic imagery presented in Revelation, Daniel and other parts of the Bible must be taken literally.

But he then turns around and says the odd beasts in the Revelation are figurative. Okay...who's not being "literal" here?

Like too many evangelical theologians, Pentecost has no concept of how apocalyptic worked in the Second Temple period. I would imagine that, having translated the Testaments of the XII Patriarchs, I've done more background work than he did in the area (unless reading the notes in the Scofield Bible counts).

Instead, he spends all of his time demonizing those blasted amillenialists. An enormous waste of time and energy.

Then again, the book is almost 600 pages long, and uneducated people are always impressed when they see you reading something large. But for my money, you could learn more about how to live like Christ in the light of his imminent coming (the point of eschatology) by reading an even bigger book you probably already own: the yellow one with restaurant listings.

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3 of 5 people found the following review helpful:

Excellent Book!, February 11, 2005
Reviewer: Ed "Prophecy Reader" (Tucson, AZ USA) - See all my reviews
This book is very detailed but the author does a fabulous job of defending the Pre-Tribulation/Pre-Millenial view! I highly recommend it!

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son of a prophet said...

from the above post....


"Don't expect very much ambiguity on the part of Dwight Pentecost. You will get dogmatic and definitive answers to the different minute elements of prophesy and eschatology (study of the end times) with little or no room for differing approaches and understandings. It is not a work to go to if you are looking for a spectrum of differing opinions. You will get dispensational, premillennial, pre-trib doctrine and it will be presented to you as unassailably true."
-----------------------------------


dont expect anything but the HS to tell you whether or not this book is true or not. thats why theres all different interpretations on the rapture; but the HS gives the truth only to those who are worthy.

(ps- the HS has told me that this book is the way that its going to be; pre-trib rapture and millenial kingdom to follow after the trib)

hmmm....waht size cake will i need to celebrate my 1000th birthday during the millenial kingdom that will hold 1000 candles!!? lol

maybe my mortgage will be paid up by then and banks will issue 900 year mtgs.....hehe......

down but not out said...

Mogel said,

It comes from the scripture that says "two will be in the field working, and one will be taken and the other one left".

Course the rapture crazed Christians don't understand that the one that was taken was the one that was destroyed by fire or other catastrophe at the 2nd coming. They got it TOTALLY BACKWARDS. You see the one that was left and NOT TAKEN was the one that ISN'T destroyed AND KILLED, but stays on earth longer through the great millenium that has been spoken of & prophesied which is a 1000 years of peace on the earth with Jesus as the governmental & religious leader and King and lawgiver.



Yes Mogel, You hit the nail right on the head. The average Christian does indeed have that one completly and utterly convoluted.
That is what I an talking about when I speak of Greek mindset vs Hebrew mindset

mogel said...

Does that mean that you, me, and Jesus, Mary, Lucifer, etc, were all brothers and sisters?
______________________________
Yes, spiritual Brothers & sisters. Not physical brothers & sisters obviously. Our Spirits (the living entity within our physical body) are all related to each other through the Spiritual Parent who is God the Father & Heavenly Mother, who begat ALL Spirits, Jesus, being the Firstborn in the Spirit, or the oldest spirit being born first. Lucifer(Satan) and 1/3 of Heaven (all male spirits) before that were cast out, will never receive a physical body for not keeping their valiancy in the first estate (pre-earth life) through their rebellion against God.

mogel said...

There will be a small group of Saints, the real valiant living a celestial law, will meet Christ up in the air at his 2nd coming, some that are dead already & receive their celestial body resurrection at that time, and some already currently living on the earth. This is the resurrection for some which is described as those changed in the "twinkling of an eye" (sudden change from mortality to immortality). This small group of people obviously won't be affected by the tribulations that will come shortly after because they will become immortal suddenly. (1 Thes 4: 14-17. They may not participate in the tribulation times in any way, not sure, but won't be affected by the many catastrophies & wars & pestilences, due to their immortality; they can't die because they are resurrected. Resurrected being may visit the earth occasionally for some special purposes, but I suspect these people that meet Christ in the air, will spend most of their time near the throne of God, far away, which at that time, still won't be on earth. Most believers (not valiant enough to be living a celestial law), living at the time, will NOT be resurrected at that time of Christ's 2nd coming appearance in the clouds, (the morning of the first resurrection) and will endure the tribulation times & some will be killed. That's why most Christians believers are misled on the concept of the rapture thinking that by simply being a believer, they will escape totally all of the wrath of God's punishments to shortly come thereafter. Many believers will endure suffering & hardships. In the very least all people living a telestial law (the wicked) will be destroyed by the impending judgments. Those living a terrestrial law, who are all the honorable people of the earth, will remain on the earth to usher in the 1000 years of peace.

There isn't even a word called "rapture" in the scriptures. It's a man made up word.

mogel said...

Nemo: Here's a good scripture to contradict the doctrine the once saved, always saved, doctrine you believe:

Math 10: 22: "And you shall be hated for all men for my name's sake; BUT HE THAT ENDURETH TO THE END SHALL BE SAVED."

The question is: Have you "endured to the end" yet by combating and overcoming all of the fiery darts and temptations and tests of Satan? If not, how do you know that your salvation is sure and you are saved & insure your position to live with God eternally? Isn't the END, exactly what it says it is, the end which infers the end of your mortal life? Any quitters that are saved? Is the specific salvation defined in this scripture an EVENT or is it a life long process? If it's a life long process, how can you know the status of your salvation now? Do you know your future? Will you be valiant or not?

neodemes said...

I think one need only look as far as the thief on the cross next to Jesus.

Luk 23:42
And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

Luk 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

neodemes said...

Eph 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
- - - - - - -
Does Lucifer qualify as a non-flesh and blood principality, mogel?

mogel said...

Paradise is NOT Heaven. Paradise is part of the World of Spirits where you go RIGHT AFTER you die. Paradise & the Spirit prison (hell) is a place where the preaching of the gospel is done. 1 Peter 3: 18-20. See also Alma Chapter 40, the whole chapter.

Jesus went to Paradise as a Spirit the day he died. Jesus spent 3 days there. After the 3rd day, Jesus resurrected his body and then returned to his Father in Heaven. Jesus also made another special visit to his wife, Mary Magdalene, during those 3 days.
What did Jesus say to Mary Magdalene, who thought he was the gardner at first? Jesus was still a Spirit before the 3rd day: "Touch me not Mary, for I have not yet ascended to my Father which is in Heaven." When he appeared to Mary shortly after the crucifixion, he still wasn't YET a resurrected being.

Heaven is a place for resurrected beings. The place of Spirits is not a place for resurrected beings, but a stopping over place where all people go right after they die. Those in the Spirit World are not yet resurrected, but only Spirits.

mogel said...

Does Lucifer qualify as a non-flesh and blood principality, mogel?
_________________________
I would think yes.

mogel said...

Utopia is not built on confidence but builds confidence itself.
______________________________
Nemo: The Federal Reserve Note is only valuable now to buy food because of a false and temporary confidence which is really a lie. The lie can't always be hid. The fact is there isn't enough fiat money to pay all the debt that has been accrued by everyone (principal and interest) and never can be. The figure that some have estimated, is maybe as much as 70 trillion dollars. Once that confidence is shattered, by a realization of how things really are, then, it becomes worthless, being the chit it is. "There has never been a fiat or paper currency that has NOT FAILED." How can that historical fact build confidence or how can a false system be founded on confidence?

A Utopia place is a place where the System is built upon eternal or true Godlike principles, so these principles ALWAYS build confidence. Unfortunately a System of usury that can never be paid is not of God, but is man made, so it will fail being the worthless system it is. Worthwhile things last.

down but not out said...

Nemo said,

I think one need only look as far as the thief on the cross next to Jesus.

Luk 23:42
And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

Luk 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.


Here is an example of not knowing the proper context of the transalation.

Remember that there is no punctuation in Greek or Hebrew.
When the scribes were translating this particular passage they put the comma in were they thought it sounded best.

Read it with the pause in another place and the whole meaning changes.

And Jesus said unto him. Verily I say unto thee Today (pause) thou shalt be with me in paradise.

In this changes the entire time element of the passage.

neodemes said...

Back to once saved, always saved...

John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand

2 Corinthians

21 Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22 set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.


Ephesians 1:13
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit

1 Peter 1:

3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade--kept in heaven for you, 5 who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

Salvation isn't brought by a magical incantation, saying the words without changing the heart. If one pays lip service to faith and then walks away from it, it can be argued that the individual was never saved in te first place.

We don't become perfect people upon accepting the Gift of Salvation, incapable of sinning for the rest of our mortal lives. If we stumble, we are not doomed to damnation.


down,

I can't argue the merits of your punctuation point. But, I don't buy the explanation you present.

I believe He was saying emphatically that on THAT day, the thief would be with Jesus in Paradise

neodemes said...

mogel said...

Does Lucifer qualify as a non-flesh and blood principality, mogel?
_________________________
I would think yes.


******************

The "him" in the verse below refers to Jesus...what things did He create?

Colossians 16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

down but not out said...

neo said,

I can't argue the merits of your punctuation point. But, I don't buy the explanation you present.

I believe He was saying emphatically that on THAT day, the thief would be with Jesus in Paradise


Of course, each one believes what they WANT to believe regardless of the facts presented. I understand that

mogel said...

Nemo: The pause after today, still makes no difference in the time factor. The scriptures in 1 Peter says where Jesus went right after he died, & it wasn't heaven, it was paradise, the world of spirits. Heaven is Heaven & Paradise in Paradise. Adam & Even lived in a place called Paradise, did they not? It wasn't Heaven, was it? Call things what they are.

What was the thief asking? Take me with you, was it not or remember me when you are in your kingdom? The thief was answered his question by Jesus giving him an answer that satisfied him immediately. After all, he was going to be dead within the day. Time was of the essence in his mind. When you are ready to die, that's all your think about is time. Read the scripture in the context of what was going on, not what you would like it to read.

mogel said...

Whoops, I guess I addressed the wrong person.

mogel said...

The "him" in the verse below refers to Jesus...what things did He create?

Colossians 16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him.
_________________________
Nemo, Maybe I'm missing your point. I agree Satan cannot or did not create anything. I also agree Jesus created the world under the direction of his Father.
Are you somehow tying in Colossians 16 with Eph. 6: 12 & trying to come to a certain conclusion?

mogel said...

Notice Colossians 1: 15
Jesus the creator "who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.

Can Jesus be the creator of all things on earth and in Heaven and at the same time be the firstborn in the Spirit too? Can a creator and a Son, a Son being the creation of the creator--- have always existed? If so, Jesus could have never been born a Spirit and Jesus couldn't have had a Father and Jesus certainly wouldn't have been called the "Firstborn" of all creatures of living things. Seems like a contradiction unless....

It must be that Jesus created all things physically or is the creator of all physical bodies or things on earth or in Heaven in the physical sense.

God the Father, an older God, is the creator of all things that are of a spiritual nature, or the creator of our Spirits and is rightfully called the Father of all Spirits, including the Father of Jesus's Spirit.

Notice in the Book of Genesis there are two creations mentioned, one a spiritual creation first, and the second creation is a physical creation.

One creation must involve God the Father as the creator, creating all things spiritually first and the other creation must involve Jesus, the Son, as the God or creator of all things created in a physical sense.

WillToFight said...

Vanity Fair: http://www.prisonplanet.
com/articles/july2006/090706
Conspiracy.htm

Conspiracy

Nancy Jo Sales / Vanity Fair | July 9 2006

Comment: This is another fair piece in the mainstream media on the 9/11 truth movement. It shows the impact of the internet, highlighting how Dylan Avery's film has hit number one on google video.

With $6,000 and a laptop computer, three kids from upstate New York made a documentary about 9/11 that spread across the Internet and threw millions for a loop.

son of a prophet said...

neodemes said...

Back to once saved, always saved...
------------------------------


i agree with this statement; ie., one cannot 'lose' their salvation.

the real question is...'was one saved to begin with'

there are those who 'come close', even to the very precipice and then fall away...

Heb 6

fact is taht today, most are not saved (99%), but as i have previosly stated, they are 'elect'.

in the times we live in today, 'elect' means that they are like the thief on the cross, that will be saved at the last instant.

most are not saved today because we are not undergoing the suffereing like yeshua and the apostles.

we cannot live an 'easy life' and expect to be given HS power and wisdom that the apostles and martyrs had.

they had to undergo persecution 24/7, which we do not have to undergo today.

did they suffer to make it 'easy'
for us to be saved and still enjoy life??

ABSLOLUTELY NOT!!!

NO SUFFERING, NO SALVATION!

i am NOT saying to self flagellate oneself, just that when state and religion merged, that was the end of persecution, which made it harder to do the suffering (purging) if you will to obtain salvation.

now most suffering is done at 'catch up time' just before death when one is sick and relies on modern medicine and technology (sorcery) believing that this will make them better. all it does is bring the required suffering to be purged of sin to obtain salvation.

check it out; "pharmacopeia" came from the root word "sorcery" in latin.

drugs are mere chemicals for sorcery; to entrance or enchant

WillToFight said...

'A Scanner Darkly' Is Sci-Fi Come True

Hugh Hart / SF Chronicle | July 10 2006

Shortly after he began adapting Philip K. Dick's drug surveillance saga "A Scanner Darkly," Austin filmmaker Richard Linklater imagined the late sci-fi writer having a laugh at his expense.

"I was out here in Los Angeles briefly, 2 in the morning, not a car in sight, you hit an intersection as the light turns red," he says. "Boom, a few weeks later this $265 traffic ticket shows up in the mail with my license plate and a picture of my face -- they tracked me down. The logical next step is, 'OK, we've scanned you biometrically, we know you jaywalked. Fifty bucks, please.' And I could just hear Philip K. Dick chuckling in my head: 'See? I told you -- the future.' "

mogel said...

I have to tend to agree: NO SUFFERING, NO SALVATION!

You must "work out your salvation with fear and trembling before God." It is not an easy process. It involves, great faith and continued repentence, change of character, and endurance to the end, continued good works, and faithful diligence. You still can't do all this yourself either. You also need the power and efficacy of the atonement of Christ too to complete your salvation for without it, all works is vanity and uselessness.

brandilynwilson said...

hi

brandilynwilson said...

DO NOT waste your time with "Cracking The Code", I followed it to the exact letter and am being audited for the last 3 years. The IRS is garnishing wages and bank accounts. Not worth the headache!

neodemes said...

mogel said...

The "him" in the verse below refers to Jesus...what things did He create?

Colossians 16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him.
_________________________
Nemo, Maybe I'm missing your point. I agree Satan cannot or did not create anything. I also agree Jesus created the world under the direction of his Father.
Are you somehow tying in Colossians 16 with Eph. 6: 12 & trying to come to a certain conclusion?

***********************************

I just don't see that Jesus can be both Creator of and brother to the principality know as Lucifer.