Friday, March 30, 2007

The Test (02-23-07)

I am currently in the struggles of a decision and your prayers and godly advice would most certainly be of help. I have read the scripture thoroughly and have come across the verses that say don’t tempt the Lord your God and also when it comes to trusting in God’s provision, Him declaring test me in this. As I look to the end of this trial and see a few options for settlement I also see conflicting remedies. My integrity says demand this way. My inquisitor wonders if God’s plan supercedes my integrity. Next do I play the game laid before me or move the whole package to another field? What I don’t know is if my faith is a holy expectation or a test. Our faith is enticed to move mountains but God was angry with the exodus for putting Him on trial. The book of Judith in the apocraphy deals with this. The people give God a timeframe and are righteously admonished by Judith yet she devises a cunning and deceitful plan she asked the Lord to bless in the same timeframe. He does. I do not need a miracle to defeat this foe God has more than possessed me with the knowledge to overcome their scheming. What if this provision is also a temptation not to faith for God’s highest plan? I can see a spark driving me to not trust in my gifts and to watch the hand of the Lord. These choices of action cannot be delayed much longer nor can the course be reversed once committed to. This means I must know what to do. Of course I will because God is God but your spiritual quotation I believe is needed for the equation. Oh that Jesus may find His boast in the answer. Thank you! My help comes from the Lord as do you!


mogel said...

Let me quote again from the legal dictionary:

CONSPIRATOR: "One involved in a conspiracy; one who acts with another, or others, in furtherance of an unlawful transaction. "It is NOT NECESSARY that all of the conspirators either meet together or agree simultaneously...It is not necessary that each member of a conspiracy KNOW THE EXACT PART WHICH EVERY OTHER PARTICIPANT IS PLAYING; NOR is it necessary in order to be bound by the acts of his associates that each member of a conspiracy SHALL KNOW all the OTHER PARTIPANTS therein; NOR is it requisite that simultaneous action be had for those who come on later, AND COOPERATE in the common effort to obtain the unlawful results, TO BECOME PARTIES HERETO AND ASSUME RESPONSIBILITY FOR ALL THAT HAS BEEN DONE BEFORE." 47 F. Supp. 395, 400-01. According to the Model Penal Code, a conspirator is one who, with another person or persons with the purpose of promoting OR FACILITATING THE COMMISSION OF A CRIME ( agrees with each other person or persons that they or one or more of them WILL ENGAGE IN CONDUCT WHICH CONSTITUTES SUCH CRIME OR AN ATTEMPT OR SOLICITATION to commit such crime; or b) agrees to aid such other person or persons in the planning or commission of such crime or an attempt or solicitation to commit such crime." Model Penal Code 5.03 (Approved Draft 1962).

Notarial Dissent, since you say that the Dorean Process is a scam, as also testified by Judge Alsup, then by the definition above, all clients are conspirators. Clients don't even have to understand the process or know what others are doing for them in order to be a conspirator. The only element is that the conduct was illegal & that they participated. So your mumbo jumbo B.S. about saying that some people were conned is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT extraneous, redundant & immaterial to the discussion.

The only relevant issue to be answered is whether the Dorean Process is a lawful pursuit, or is it not a lawful pursuit? If it is a lawful pursuit justified by UCC law or other law, then, there can't be any commission of a crime, hence there can't be any conspiracy.

I've already established that all clients participated by their actions whether they were implied or expressed actions. Knowlege of what went on by the actions of those "calling the shots" is also irrelvant in terms of making a conspiracy charge stick.

The prosecution only has to show that one participated and that the participation was unlawful.

Since the FBI confiscated all of the Dorean Group's records, and since the FBI works in concert with the Court, the prosecution already knows who all the participants in the dorean process are. So if this is truly a scam, WHY IS EVERYONE NOT CHARGED TOO?

In conclusion this proves that the trial is about "selective prosecution", and hence the Court needs to say that the statutues are being wrongfully & prejudicially used as an unfair weapon, ONLY TO A SELECT FEW, just like they were under the same rule of law that Yick Wo was acquitted.

You can't be subject to a statute that is only used as a selective weapon for only a few. This is not justice, but a weapon of tyranny.

Also your judgment of Dewey Tobias is also totally inaccurate. He is not inept as you say. I've read things that he has written & he isn't inept, BUT VERY INTELLIGENT. The best that the prosecution could do is give him one charge of conspiracy!!! OHHHHHH THAT MAKES ME SOOOOOO SCARED!!!!!! :O)

And wrong again, he didn't GET CAUGHT AS YOU SAY. He was already in jail, and hence was an easy target to be indicted. Bullies go after easy targets because in essence bullies are lazy and weak.

Charging 4000 people with conspiracy would be too much work and manpower & expense, and since the trial isn't about justice, but only selective prosecution, the actions to date of the court & prosecution only trying to make examples of a few, makes TOTAL SENSE as far as their motives are concerned.

wantobefree said...

You LOSER thats because the clients were told it was a 100% guranteed proven process, it became a scam when you took the money from people and didnt return it for something that didnt work.Everything you post makes me want to puke,I wish i had the chance to atleast give you a bitch slap right across your scammin ass little face Mogel.Thats funny how your starting to put some the blame on the dorean clients.Did you read the contract, huh whatever. Ill be back

mogel said...

Want To be Free: Who told you that & who used the word, "guarantee"? Certainly wasn't me since I never spoke to you personally ever!!!! Can you show otherwise?

You've shown a propensity in the past not to post accurate information. Even you must agree to that if you were honest. Are you also posting inaccurate information even now?

Did I read the contract? What are you talking about? Maybe you would like to post exactly and completely what you are referring to by doing a copy & past & referring specifically to what you are talking about because I'm confused what you are trying to say again.

No, again as usual you are misinterpreting what I posted. I have never put the blame on the Dorean clients, I put the blame on the lenders who don't follow the law & the courts that want to protect the fraud of the lenders.

The difference between me and you is basically you believe the process to be a scam, and I don't & I never have believed that. I would have never gotten involved if I ever believed as you do now.

The minute you started to believe the process was a scam, was the same minute you become guilty of a conspiracy charge with no defense whatsoever because you admit it's a scam. Once you've done that, you might as well put a fork in it, because you're done. Maybe you're the one that needs to be slapped before you hang yourself? Just a loving slap you know, nothing vindictive. You know the kind that is for your own good!!!

As long as the process isn't a scam, there can't be any conspiracy charge, so everytime you open your mouth, I want to puke at your ignorance & lack of perception of what your words and actions really mean.

The only person putting blame on clients WOULD BE YOU and those that have lost their way too, by their admission or perception that the process didn't work or couldn't work ever.

habakkuk said...

"Did I read the contract? What are you talking about? Maybe you would like to post exactly and completely what you are referring to by doing a copy & past & referring specifically to what you are talking about because I'm confused what you are trying to say again."



KYHOOYA said...

Yea! So put that in your crack pipe and smoke it!

If it was'nt so easy to see that you people that are looking to point the finger of blame somewhere else onther that at your own lacking of, or greed when you got into this I would spend more time to show you wrong in more way's. But the facts are there and your post only say that your either to much of a ass to admit when your wrong or that you never take the good with the bad when you made a chose in your life. Get over it know matter what you say or try and make to look like someone else has cause your outcome the bottom line is that the facts were there even if the sale's pitch was a little over the top on how many or what had or had'nt been try and completed . You all still could of taken more time to look at the thing that were ,as you say proven to make sure thatthey were .
What was stopping you from doing that ? Nothing that it!

You want to cry then do so but don'trun around saying everyone but your self was the cause of your delema because your just showing more and more how you don't take responability for your actions and want everything handed you with and work or common sence to go into the outcome you are looking for.

So PLEASE give it a rest and maybe put some of that time and enery into finding what might make things better not helping to make sure that you never get anything at all.

Make alot of sense to siit there and condeim the very thing you got into and help the veryones that you were out to get from under by joining this group.

If your so easy to be fooled then I would have t geuss you had too have very little to lose at the start because you must of gotten trick out of it by someone a long time ago who told you "oh sure I own the bridge and it's mine to sell" The paper's oh I have those in my other suit I make sure to get them to you but you better act fast because I someone else that is interestedd in this bridg to"

Come on don't you see how stupid this all looks for you when you sit fpointing your finger remember when yourpointing your finger if you look at your hand you will see three pointing back at yourself.
That should tell you something about how thing look and are

Greed and wanting a better life of it are a powerfull thing and can move men to do things they would not ever do otherwise or at least they would check them out and see where the truth and facts are before jumping in.

In my case I did this but was still move to join in and at laest make a dent in the banking lies and don't be misstakin again tyhe banks are lieing and tricking you just as you sit when one can not move to get the right done then the many will be overpowering at it

The people are the only answer and to have that we must take them fron the edge of there own stupidity and bring them back to the water of empowerment so that they to may join with the other's who see to right a wrong and bring a GOOD life back to many not just the few.

It's is to easy for some to cause a gruop to fall by insighting just the thought of mistrust in to the center and then watch it grow whit very little help till it distroies there fow and they can again can take what is your and make it theirs

good day all & try and find what you can do that is goingto better your life not help the hand that holds you down have a better grip .


whyudothat said...

kurt, you already know the answer.
follow your gut

Stillwaiting said...

Mogel not bitching or anything like that.....But the two guys here told us that it was guaranteed, it would only take about a month or two or what has been several years.
I don't think it was a scam. I do believe and can support the idea that the system is a scam. I have done tons of research on both the Fed and their partners the IRS to know that it is BS.
I posted this before - had I been told that they thought they could do it or there was a better than 50% chance then the decision would have been more on me instead of on them because I was told it was a proven system.
Again, I got scammed not by K/S but the two guys here in the mid Atlantic area. And not just with this topic. These two scammed money out of all of us here in the MidAtl. Once they scammed $50K for FUN, another $50K for the PIPS of it, not to mention but I will the thousands for barter and more. The good thing with them - they did it all in the name of being good Christians. They were also the ones that were complaining about having no money because of the IRS and yet they went on vacations, bought time shares in Florida, Va and took trips overseas I think using our money.
So no I don't think K/S scammed us. I think the guys at least here whom we thought we knew (15 years) scammed us. but we are Stillwaiting3......

wantobefree said...

stillwaiting-Its still going to be all your fault no ones going to take blame anywhere they know what they did was wrong,they shouldve of waited to take peoples money till it was proven it was guranteed,but wait show where its guranteed?I agree with the way are system is corrupt and know its wrong but guess what untill everyone of the american people come together and create a revolution,were always going to be puppets on a string K/S are relizing this fact now,these guys have got bigger balls than i could of imagine and still to this day look up to them for what they are trying to do.And Byron is the one who took my money.I dont give a shit what you say I can only prove one thing a carbon copy money order with your name on it plan and simple thats it period all the bogus shit you have posted about getting money back,for small fees open up offshore accounts and if i had time to read it all im sure other bullshit,the contracts i talk about are VERBAL from your mouth on the phone ,caused i questioned why money orders were made to your name not Dorean.Dude ive had it with ya i dont think dorean was a scamm still dont I think your the scamm.Please dont respond youll use that high IQ to turn it around,like i said i got proof sitting right here in front of me and ill look at it everyday of my life just to remind me to never get taken again.

mogel said...

Want to Be Free said: "Did you read the contract, huh whatever. Ill be back"

"if i had time to read it all im sure other bullshit,the contracts i talk about are VERBAL"

No, I didn't read the verbal contract!!!!! I'm not a telepathic mind reader like you.

Shad, we agree on one thing! I was paid along with the Dorean Group for providing a service to get you in the process that you still believe is NOT a scam.

And the refund idea did not originate from me. It originated from the service provider that you admire so much. And you were never told that an offshore account would be set up for a fee; it was always a domestic bank account that was needed to be set up. And that extra fee you referred to did not go into my pocket either.

Again, the reason why the money orders were paid the way they were, wasn't my idea either. That's the way it was set up by the Dorean Group since a client had to go through Brokers to get in the process. This assured that people that did work, got paid for their labors, the Brokers as well as the agents.

Funny that you NEVER complain about your agent who introduced you to my name, since he was paid too. I can only assume that you are totally happy with his service and representations too since you have never spoken ill against him, at least you've never specifically named his name in any derogatory fashion.

I guess everyone needs a scapegoat though. I suppose I can provide that service for you too. That's pro-bono and you're very welcome.

Stillwaiting said...

Wantabefree.....I agree. It is not a scam the system sucks and they should have proved it first with one or two contracts not all of us.
I blame myself, not for trusting K/S I don't know them, never met them and probably never will. I believed the two guys that scammed our group. Scammed them over and over.
Mogel...I paid my money direct to K/S or DG not a middle man.

wantobefree said...

Mr.Shad to you.

mogel said...

Stillwaiting said: "I believed the two guys that scammed our group."

Stillwaiting: What benefit did the two guys get you knew for 15 years, if you paid your money directly to the Dorean Group? How could they have scammed you, or what motivation would they have to mislead you, if they never got paid anything from your participation in the Dorean process? Or did they get paid something & I'm not hearing the full story here? If they got paid, aren't they in essence acting as a Broker too?

Secondly, you must have gotten involved before the Brokers were even set up then. Obviously your financial risk was less than most people. You are the exception to the rule since they're were only about 100 people or so that got involved before the Brokers were set up. Do you still have your home? When your lender filed a notice of default against you after your lender lost legal title, did you also want to know by what legal authority could the lender foreclose on you & did you make an attempt to catch up your delinquent payments before you got a satisfactory answer to all of your questions? If not, how come?

I still don't understand how anyone could ever think that the process WASN'T going to go unchallenged by the lenders when the Principals always said that the behaviour of the lenders couldn't be predicted in any certain terms and them "acting badly" was the only common element among the lenders that could be expected. That surely doesn't sound like a "tried & proven" program that I've heard some people allege unless you want to argue semantics.

Getting legal title taken away through recordation was the only guaranteed or proven part of the process because in essence we know that the lenders can't validate a loan, because they never gave one in the first place & the lenders were warned in writing through the presentment that after 10 days, they could lose legal title if they didn't perform certain things.

Many misconstrued this recordation in the county records as a total success or proof that the process worked without a hitch. This was the success of the process, that many misunderstood, but when anyone took the time to see who's signature was on the discharge of mortgage or deed or reconveyance, filed in the County record, then, any reasonable and diligent person would have to ask the question, by what authority of law could the dorean trustee do this, or why would a trustee even attempt to boldly do this for each client? And was it reasonable to conclude that the lender would automatically give up without a legal fight?

If you never asked those questions, then, you never did much research or due diligence in the first place.

Wouldn't you want to know why people were saying that the process worked or wonder why some people were making claims they did before you even sent money? Do you pay for a product when you know nothing about the product?

Seeing whose name was on the deed of reconveyance was the FIRST THING I WANTED TO KNOW. That's all I needed to know to convince myself it was going to be a long fight & not a simple process that would go unchallenged.

Maybe you weren't scammed, maybe you just misunderstood what people meant by what a success meant, or maybe those trusted friends were also honestly not understanding the confrontational nature of the process either? Do you really know for sure? If you can't answer those simple questions either, then, maybe any hard feelings of yours are improperly misplaced too. Stillwaiting, were you a Mortgage Alternatives client?

Maybe failure to effectively communicate and diligently trying to understand another's words should be a crime too? Misunderstandings seems to usually lead to unfortunate events.

How many of us are guilty of not effectively listening and then blaming others for our failure to communicate and be diligent?

If your friends led you to an honest service provider (The Dorean Group), how is your group of friends whom you knew for 15 years, somehow automatically guilty for that referral, & the Dorean Group is automatically praised at the same time?

It seems that the only thing that your Broker whom led you to the process, is guilty of is the same thing that you are also guilty of, which is lack of due diligence & poor communication. If you condemn, them, aren't you also condemning yourself in the same breath of condemnation? Or are you just showing favoritism & prejudice? And I'm just talking about the dorean process, not any other pursuit your friendly group may have gotten you into.

notarial dissent said...

Moogie driveled on and on, now claiming that all of the Dorean clients were in cahoots with dim and dimmer and knew that what they were doing was criminal.

Moogie said Notarial Dissent, since you say that the Dorean Process is a scam....

Well, yes, I said it was a scam, Judge Alsop, and every other judge that has seen it, has RULED it is a scam. In order to be guilty of conspiracy the Dorean clients would have to have actively participated in what dim and dimmer were doing, and with the exception of the brokers, and a few of their clients, I seriously doubt if most of them had a clue as to what was going on. They either believed, or wanted to believe the line of bull the “boys” were slinging, and didn’t look any further than that. Cupidity is no excuse for what the Dorean clients were attempting, but it is a far cry from conspiring to and the intentional commission of fraud. Sorry, Moogs, conspiracy requires intent and knowledge, something I think was lacking in most of the cases.

There is nothing lawful or legal about any part of the Dorean Process, the UCC does not have any legal effect in real estate transactions, so there is nothing available there, and if there were actual fraud involved, then relief must be sought through the courts, not voodoo documents and processes. Same song Moogs, still same old bilge, didn’t work before, doesn’t work now.


I have no idea, why don’t you ask the Justice Department. There is no indication that some action won’t be taken against the other clients, just that nothing has been done yet. I would expect that action taken will be determined upon level of involvement.

Moogey, you are such a liar, it is beyond belief, would you like me to feed you back some of your words posted elsewhere?

So which is it Moogs, were you or weren’t you a Dorean broker???? wantobefree seems to think he has paper with your name on it, so which is it? And after you swore up and down you weren’t a broker other places. So are you just trying to avoid responsibility now? Does that explain your sudden change of tone, you want to spread the responsibility around to avoid your own?

neodemes said...

Surely moogster isn't denying being a Dorean broker!

That would be too transparent, even for him.