Friday, July 18, 2008

God's Increase is disguised (7-13-08)

I made it back to Safford on 7-9 and returned to the SHU. It appears there is a threat of another criminal prosecution out of some work I did in defending the Dorean case. Don't worry. It concerns me none. What it does do is make my stay here at Safford very tentative. If you signed up to visit me please call first to verify I am still here. If they should indict it will mean a trip back to California. I will find out what they plan to do with me shortly. I am using the time wisely fasting and praying. I can do no legal work since I have been precluded by the BOP from access to my legal work. I don't suspect this to change soon. It appears to be part of the bully tactics to cheat. I don't know about you but this is the way I think. Why go for a new indictment that only carries a max of 10 years if you are confident in the 25 you just obtained? I can't come up with a logical reason in my head. This indictment does not include Scotty for which I am grateful. He has suffered and sacrificed enough. Though we are brothers our callings are distinct. It may be that I must fight again for even a greater victory. This has nothing to do with Dorean so I won't bore you with the details. I am excited to be indicted on these issues if I should be so fortunate. They go deeper into the core of money issues than Dorean. Dorean is a mere skirmish compared to the trophies of this battle. I am still working on phase one but am being hindered by my travels and uncertainty. Indictment or not this will change in the matter of course. Please be patient and continue your prayers. Not one sparrow falls to the ground outside the Father's will. This fact forces us to come to the belief that God is always in control. Think of all the tears shed for worry and doubt. God increase our faith!

60 comments:

neodemes said...

Waiting for the other SHU to drop, eh?

"Why go for a new indictment that only carries a max of 10 years if you are confident in the 25 you just obtained? I can't come up with a logical reason in my head."

Try thinking 'consecutive' rather than 'concurrent'. Clearer?

"This has nothing to do with Dorean so I won't bore you with the details."

OK...but didn't you say..."another criminal prosecution out of some work I did in defending the Dorean case."

Sounds related but, you're right, don't bore us with the details.

dr. ira gilac said...

juggins...yo jus no dam good.






July 17, 2008

Okay. "Black Monday" already happened, in the 80’s and then also back in the 20’s according to some slang-artists, but one of the attorneys I work with gave this last Monday (July 14 2008) the name, and it seems to have stuck. You could also call it "We’re Foreclosing On You All" Monday, if you’re so inclined.

Here’s what happened, and pardon me if I sound a little frantic, but I feel a bit like Cassandra here; I’m freaking out about this but by and large, most people don’t seem to realize it happened. Most people only know one or two people involved in mortgage negotiations, so they didn’t see the coordinated collapse that I saw.

In a nutshell, what happened is that Monday morning, all the major mortgage banks in the U.S. issued some kind of order or decree, that they would cease conducting any kind of workouts or negotiations with borrowers, and instead foreclose on every home they could.

I know this because the nonprofit I work for is a sort of hub that helps people understand their options and take steps to avoid foreclosure. That means that I’m in regular communication with, among other people, brokers and lawyers who are trying to help people who have problems with their mortgages and need to negotiate with their mortgage companies; as well as individuals who are trying to work things out themselves.

Mortgage negotiations are absolutely critical…

Because mortgage problems are very, very often related to bad loans whose payments are increasing, or to properties whose values are now way under the value of the mortgage, or that have other problems like job losses or illness to deal with, helping people with mortgages often means contacting the lender and getting them to make a change to your mortgage so someone doesn’t lose their home. They may change it from an adjustable to a fixed loan; lower your interest rate; forgive a late payment or two; or something like that. These "mortgage workouts" are not only common, but they are the accepted way for borrowers to handle problems with their mortgage. Governments and banks alike have been urging borrowers to contact their lenders and "work something out" as the main way of fighting foreclosures for some time now. That’s basically what the whole "HOPE" thing the federal government "did" (if you want to call it doing anything) was. Unfortunately, the government neglected to give this solution any teeth by requiring banks to work with people, so thus far it’s been a game of incredibly one-sided negotiations, often requiring people who are already broke to get legal help (a good lawyer can negotiate better than you can) if they want to keep their houses.

As if that wasn’t bad enough, on Monday, the banks stopped making any deals.

Let me say that more clearly: As of 9 a.m. on Monday, ALL the major banks stopped making ANY deals whatsoever that I’m aware of. They even called off workouts that were in progress, including ones that were all done except for signing the papers. This is whether or not the borrower was actually in foreclosure yet.

…And now they’re gone?

A comment related to me from someone who asked the biggest foreclosure law firm in our area about it was, "We’ve been given our marching orders: No more deals. No more workouts. We play by the rules, and if we can foreclose, we foreclose." Apparently these "marching orders" came down from every major bank (at least) in the U.S. first thing Monday morning, and as of today, there still seems to be no movement away from this new "policy" of letting homes go into foreclosure en masse, with no way out whatsoever for troubled homeowners.

One of the attorneys I work with was busy negotiating about ten cases

for us, and his panicked phone call on Monday afternoon was what tipped

me off. Then my company started hearing from people who were involved

in their own negotiations, every one of them with a story about how the

bank called them on Monday and called off the whole thing. At this

moment, I’m not aware of a single negotiation that’s still going on,

with the exception of two that an attorney I know managed to keep alive

by convincing someone he knew on the other side to risk their job by

breaking the new rules.

That means….

Lost your job and missed a few payments? Pay them in full, right now, or lose your home.

Grandma got shafted into an unfair mortgage she should never have been given? Pay it on its terms (unless you can refinance by some miracle), or Grandma’s homeless.

Interest rate about to increase, making your payments jump several hundred bucks a month, even though your home isn’t even worth the amount of your loan anymore? Tough titties.

…And much, much more. I talk to and meet with these people every day, and up until this week, it’s been a source of great pride to be able to help at least some of them out, because almost none of them deserve to lose their homes.

Well. As of "Black Monday", people who call me can either A) have the credit score and means to refinance (which means they can’t have missed any payments, and their mortgage can’t be more than about 80% of the new, lower value of their homes, and they have cash on hand for closing costs); or B) pack their bags.

But WHY???

What’s really scary, besides the fact that nobody seems to know this is happening, unless they do a job like mine; is that if they do know about it, they don’t know why.

Since Monday, I’ve written to several blogs and called everybody I can think of short of my state representatives (who are next, if I can’t get some answers soon) to try and figure out what the hell banks are thinking. Nobody can tell me — in fact, everybody so far has been shocked to hear what I’m telling them about Black Monday. Everyone who checks up on it agrees that it’s happening — major foreclosure law-firms have their orders to cease negotiations immediately; and citizens not in foreclosure who were attempting to work a deal out themselves all got shut out completely. No explanations — even the super-huge law firms don’t seem to know why they were given these orders, or towards what purpose.

Thinking more generally for a moment, it’s hard to see what banks can possibly gain from this behavior: They lose usually at least $20,000 on every foreclosure, which is way over the cost of working out most loans with the borrowers. I don’t know about you, but I’m used to banks at least making sense — they may be evil sometimes, but you know how they tick; they’re doing what they’re doing because of the bottom line. But no-one I’ve spoken to can tell me how forcing millions of homes to go into foreclosure helps the bottom line for anybody.

One super scary thing that someone mentioned to me as a possibly explanation is that maybe the banks have gotten together and agreed to try a "suicide gambit" — basically threatening to eradicate themselves (which is what unchecked foreclosures would do at this point) if the government doesn’t bail them out (as it plans to for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac). This would be the most terrifying thing I could imagine — especially for homeowners — because as we’ve learned by messing with suicide bombers, there ain’t much you can do to fight someone who’s willing to die for their cause. So, although I can’t find the slightest shred of evidence that anything other than that is going on, I’m going to keep hoping as hard as I can that that isn’t it. If it’s anything else, some weird legal or tax thing maybe, then there’s a possibility that organizations like mine can figure out a way to negotiate with the banks that takes their "concerns" into consideration.

Hopefully I’ll have more information later in the week — I’m still trying to get permission from some of our executives to make the really heavy-dirty phone calls. But this is definitely real, and if it continues, (seriously, let’s hope like hell that it’s temporary), it could be the worst thing to happen to the U.S. — and even the world — economy yet.

www.puredoxyk.com/index.php/2008/07/16/black-monday-2008-foreclosure-apocalypse/

notorial dissent said...

Kurt spins another one
It appears there is a threat of another criminal prosecution out of some work I did in defending the Dorean case. Don't worry. It concerns me none.
Not surprising, considering your on going illegal acts, but then you have crossed over into fantasy land so far as to not matter any longer. The appearance, by the way, is more in the realm of a fact, you know, grand jury, indictment, impending trial, much longer sentence, little things like that. As Alfred E Newman was so fond of saying, “What me worry”.

a spin and a miss
I have been precluded by the BOP from access to my legal work.
Translation from the Kurtian, “I’ve had my computer privileges yanked since I just can’t seem to quit creating and filing fraudulent documents and they won’t let me do it anymore”, which considering Kurt’s track record is kind of a day late an dollar short.

Kurt unclear on the concept
Why go for a new indictment that only carries a max of 10 years if you are confident in the 25 you just obtained? I can't come up with a logical reason in my head.
Well, for particularly stupid and recidivistic loons like yourself, it means ten on top of 25, for each count. Maybe you need to look up the term consecutive as applied to a sentence?

Kurt trying to avoid the obvious
This has nothing to do with Dorean so I won't bore you with the details. I am excited to be indicted on these issues if I should be so fortunate.
No, it has to do with filing fraudulent liens against government employees, which is a big no no, read felony. You got caught, they are all going to be voided, and you are going to get spanked, what a wonderful symmetry.

Kurt oblivious
Dorean is a mere skirmish compared to the trophies of this battle.
Oh you mean the room and board for 25 years, the grey suit, and the 6 x 9 room? Yes, I am sure everyone of your followers is eager for same.

So obviously reality hasn’t set in yet? Oh well, you have 27 more years to try and find it.



Actually Neo, I think the term gavel, as on one more conviction, or maybe a whole lot more the way he has been going at it.

dr. ira gilac said...

sum years ago, didn joe montana and the jailedmen walk into a coathouse and present a blonde to da juggins fo $2.9B and walk out freemen...an the juggins even thank them fo it?

he was hoppy to let them go becoss now he can trun around and covert the blond to a brownette an make BIG $$$ off it.

the jailedmen gurenteed the blond for full fate and cretit of the us govt.


the let almose all of dem go cep for a few who were sitting in the holding unit.

the wordin cum in and axe dem if they were reddy to go?

the jailed men say to the wordin: "are we reddy to go where?"

afta day say dat, the wordin lok dem up fo 25 yers...

day got trapped
'in the end"

bcoss when day answer the wordin, the enter into a contrack with him...and fo dis, they got it in the end like juggins likes it.

shame.....

dis is a too stroy...no bs

yo can lock it up.

dr. ira gilac said...

yo can lock it up.

or yo can listen to kendy tell it.

neodemes said...

Speaking of boring details, can't wait for moogie to spin all this into butter.

He'll no doubt be along after he's done Thummim his Urim.

dr. ira gilac said...

WOW!!!


tonite kendy says that he will have an absolute blockbuster on his show...CHECKMATE for the beast court sytem...


A MUST LISTEN @ 9 PM EST

on rbn netwrok intanet radio.

see yo there!

dr. ira gilac said...

he gonna tell yo how to walk in an out of a coatroom and tell juggins if he like it "in the end" then to stick his coatroom up his *ss!

becoss yo walkin out and dam thins dat juggins can do bout it!

mogel007 said...

Notarial Dissent said: "Not surprising, considering your on going illegal acts, but then you have crossed over into fantasy land so far as to NOT MATTER ANY LONGER."
______________________________

At least you ADMIT that his process and objectives did matter at one time. That's an improvement coming from you & such a GREAT ADMISSION COMING FROM YOU. LOL

mogel007 said...

Once the original convictions ARE OVERTURNED, than the prosecutions case won't matter any longer.

mogel007 said...

Nemos says: "Speaking of boring details, can't wait for moogie to spin all this into butter.

He'll no doubt be along after he's done Thummim his Urim."
_________________________________

This coming from the Master of baiting himself. I guess that's why they call you the GREAT MASTERBAITER. Go away & just play with yourself, since you are void of any objectiveness or reality or truth, faith, hope, or charity. We all know you don't play well with others. Go spin your web of deceipt on your real estate site that criticizes all the gurus. I guess if you can criticize all those that are already successful, I guess than the implication is that you are more successful if not more knowledgeable than them all. Kind of a form of narcissism if you ask me, but so is playing with yourself.

notorial dissent said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
notorial dissent said...

Moogie still can’t read or make coherent statements
At least you ADMIT that his process and objectives did matter at one time.
Is there some/any part of on going that wasn’t clear?

Moogie having a serious break with reality
Once the original convictions ARE OVERTURNED, than the prosecutions case won't matter any longer.
On the really really far fetched possibility that the verdict is overturned, Moogster, the prosecution will just re-present their case in front of another jury, maybe with more charges this time, and get another conviction. You, like the dim duo, are operating under the delusion that they are going to be able convince a jury that they didn’t do anything illegal, when the facts and reality say otherwise. Just keep right on hallucinatin there Moogs, its all you have left.

mogel007 said...

Notarial Dissent said: "the prosecution will just re-present their case in front of another jury, maybe with more charges this time, and get another conviction."
_________________________________

Or they will realize it's a waste of time & the prosecution will not make it go to trial a 2nd time after an appeals ruling, since it's still the prosecutions choice whether they want to further embarass themselves.

More charges? You mean more charges of bank fraud??????

mogel007 said...

Course with 90 financial institutions on the Fed's watch list now of going under due to fraud, not to mention even Fannie Mae & Freddie Mac, you would think maybe some high officials of those institutions should be charged with mail fraud & conspiracy too since the government always needs a scapegoat or two to put the blame on.

After all taking advantage of all of those borrowers that couldn't afford the terms of the loan that were given to them, is the reason for the subprime crisis going on right now causing the very longevity of the banks to come into question. When lenders don't verify income or assets, accept bogus appraisals & don't take into consideration with due diligence the borrowers ability to repay the loan, & violations of the TILA laws, the very act of approving a loan that shouldn't have been approved in the first place & sending documents through the mails & collecting payments on them, constitutes mail fraud & conspiracy in the very least.

Additional charges? Yea, I think the financial institutions really should worry about THOSE ADDITIONAL CHARGES IN THE WORKS & THE UNGOING INVESTIGATIONS BY THE GOVERNMENT!!!!

Remember the nursing home owners in New Orleans that didn't evacuate their clients & a dozen or two dozen people died to the levies breaking? They were sued for not evacuating timely since the federal government needed a scapegaot. The owners got off because they proved the levies wouldn't have broken if the Army Core of Engineers did their job correctly. Since the government WERE THE ONES AT FAULT, & in essence caused the levies to break, the owners of the nursing home WERE EXONERATED.

The REAL CRIMINALS who have caused the most pain in this country right now need to be put on trial!!!!

dr. ira gilac said...

“You shall make no covenant [contract or franchise©] with them [foreigners, pagans], nor with their [pagan government©] gods© [laws© or judges©].

They shall not dwell in your land [and you shall not dwell in theirs by becoming a “resident©” in the process of contracting with them], lest they make you sin against Me [God].

For if you serve their gods© [under contract or agreement or franchise], it will surely be a snare to you.”


[Exodus 23:32-33, Bible, NKJV]

dr. ira gilac said...

“You shall make no covenant [contract or franchise©] with them [foreigners, pagans], nor with their [pagan government©] gods© [laws© or judges©].





well, dat about sum it up juggins....yo a pay-again judge.....

too bad! we dun payin yo again! an agian...an again...an agina...

all yo paygan jugis are done!

dr. ira gilac said...

it all yo falt, juggins...



July 17, 2008

had a very interesting conversation today with a friend who used to be a mortgage broker (until the company he started imploded) and now works at a bank selling REO property. Now, this is a guy who made millions flipping, and when I told him two years ago that the whole house of cards was going to collapse shortly, he laughed at me.

He ain't laughing anymore.

I get on the phone with him, and he immediately tells me that his wife just got laid off from Indy Mac, so life is kind of bad for them right now. Then he proceeds to tell me that both he and his wife (who have very close contacts at banks) have heard from reliable sources that the industry FULLY expect a massive run on savings and loans in the very near future. We're talking weeks, if not days. We are now officially on Banking System Deathwatch, ladies and gentlemen, because the next big bank that falls will be the domino that unleashes the runs on the other banks.

He said WaMu is certifiably D.O.A and will almost certainly be the next victim. He said the industry would be surprised if WaMu makes it another 30 days. Downey Savings and First Federal are the next dogs to die, according to him.

If it hadn't been so sad and scary, I would have actually enjoyed my I-told-you-so moment. But this guy is genuinely frightened now. You can hear the panic in his voice. He told me, point-blank: "It's all coming down. The whole system is crashing." He is quickly turning into an urban survivalist -- outfitting his home with solar, buying biodiesel, stocking up on food. It's truly fascinating to watch the variations in human behavior as this unfolds. This guy needed some prompting, but after the Fannie/Freddie news broke last week, he immediately got the clue. On the other hand, I work with a lawyer, and he's married to another lawyer. She banks at WaMu. I've been telling him for months, "Man, you've got to tell your wife to get her money out of that bank." Even after Indy failed, she was resisting because it was a "pain" to decouple her billpay and set up new auto debits and other crap. It's just pure laziness. So here you have someone who has SEEN the lines snaking around the corner, has clearly heard that people are having trouble getting their money, and she thinks, "Nah, I'll just wait and see what happens with WaMu." Finally, he put his foot down and basically demanded that she yank her money out. So she's beginning the "transition" this week.

WTF??

There is going to be a LOT of roadkill before this thing is over. Be prepared to step over the bodies, my friends. They will be littering the streets.

2cents.dailyreckoning.com/viewtopic.php

neodemes said...

Touched a nerve, did I?

judge allslop said...

like your alter ego says, "rave on"

notorial dissent said...

And Moogie is still clueless
Or they will realize it's a waste of time & the prosecution will not make it go to trial a 2nd time after an appeals ruling, since it's still the prosecutions choice whether they want to further embarass themselves.

More charges? You mean more charges of bank fraud??????


Since they haven’t been embarrassed in the least, in fact they won, and since the likelihood of it being overturned is less than slim and none, the question is mute, but there is certainly no reason to think that not only wouldn’t they refile the charges already tried, but that they wouldn’t go ahead and file the rest as well. The charges on the current round of document fraud have already gone to the grand jury, and I have faith in Kurt’s ability to find yet another way to shoot himself in the foot, so I would expect other charges to be filed in the coming months.

Additional charges, Yeah!!!!!!!!!
Additional charges? Yea, I think the financial institutions really should worry about THOSE ADDITIONAL CHARGES IN THE WORKS & THE UNGOING INVESTIGATIONS BY THE GOVERNMENT!!!!

The current mess with the lending industry, whatever else happens or comes out of it is irrelevant to the matter at hand. What the lending industry did or did not do has nothing to do with the crimes of dim and dimmer and of the crimes they were tried and convicted of, and whatever may or may not have happened in the lending industry does not change their actions that were are fraud.

The horse is dead Moogs, even the flies have given it up, but then you never were all that bright to being with.

mogel007 said...

Notarial Dissent said: "The current mess with the lending industry, whatever else happens or comes out of it is irrelevant to the matter at hand."
______________________________

No, I don't think it's irrelevant, I think it proves that the Dorean Group issue is a political issue with a political agenda. Kurt's defense is that the prosecution created a crime out of something that isn't a crime. I think there is plenty of proof that the Federal Court is protecting the interests of the financial institutions.

Mail fraud is a joke the way the prosecution argued the case & the way they didn't provide any facts of relevance to the issues at hand, and the way the prosecution changed the victims from the banks/lenders to the dorean clients & never showed how the Dorean clients were relevant to the original indictment. The clients were never originally pled as victims. That's a big problem.

Course the North Carolina Case & the Attorney General proved that the State's were there to protect the clients anyway, & that wasn't the Federal Court's responsibility since the dorean clients weren't a jurisdictional hook to get jurisdiction in the Federal Court: "Prosecution created an irrlevant trial to any charged conduct". "If the court lacks jurisdiction over party, than it lacks ALL JURISDICTION TO ADJUDICATE PARTY'S RIGHTS, whether or not subject matter is properly before it." US v. Verdugo-Urquidez, 939 F. 2d 1341

"The fraud if real within the Dorean Process would not fall within the jurisdiction of the Federal Government IF THE FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS WERE ABSENT."

There's probably a great difference of what was shown to the grand jury to get an indictment compared to what was argued in the criminal trial anyway. When those huge differences are shown, the appellate court will have to let the Dorean Group go free. If the financial institutions were necessary as a hook for jurisdiction to even hear the Federal Case & talk about the subject matter of mail fraud, than a reversal is certain since all bank fraud charges were dropped: "The clients of Dorean as individuals do not confer jurisdiction by any relationship to the federal government. They would be protected by their particular state statutes of frauds." "North Carolina issued a civil injunction based upon this jurisdiction. This case held that the clients were the object of their protection, NOT THE FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS."

Obviously the greater damage done through the subprime mortgage fiasco has gone unpunished to date as far as prosecuting fraud in high places. The Dorean Group's story is a small story compared to this fraud on how the population is affected by the greed of the lenders to make loans that never should have been made in the first place.

Dr. Caligari said...

If the financial institutions were necessary as a hook for jurisdiction to even hear the Federal Case & talk about the subject matter of mail fraud, than a reversal is certain since all bank fraud charges were dropped: "The clients of Dorean as individuals do not confer jurisdiction by any relationship to the federal government. They would be protected by their particular state statutes of frauds."

Wrong, wrong, and wrong. The use of the mails in furtherance of a scheme to defraud anyone-- not just financial institutions-- is a sufficient basis for federal jurisdiction. The mails are an exclusively federal instrumentality under the U.S. Constitution (Article I, section 8, clause 7).

That is why the mail fraud statute (18 U.S.C. 1341) prohibits causing "any matter or thing whatever to be sent or delivered by the Postal Service" if doing so is in furtherance of "any scheme or artifice to defraud" (emphasis added).

"Any" means "any." So federal jurisdiction here is clear-cut.

dr. ira gilac said...

The prudent foresees evil and hides himself, the simple pass on and are punished.

Proverbs 27:12

dr. ira gilac said...

it taking bout yo juggins...yo try to hid behing yo raincoat...but it anit gonna help yo "in the end"......

mogel007 said...

Honest services to DOREAN clients don't constitute mail fraud, so still no federal jurisdiction. Clients got what they were promised which was a discharge of their mortgage after the lenders default of not answering the presentment. It's not the Dorean Group's fault that the courts & the lenders still want to pretend that they gave a legitimate loan when they didn't. These FINANCIAL institutions still have to answer for all of the supposed loans that violated their own rules that caused the subprime crisis the country is still facing. This is the real MAIL FRAUD WE SHOULD BE TALKING ABOUT.

Kind of sad when a company like GMAC can make more money giving supposed loans than selling their product which is vehicles. Course General Motors is the next giant to fall along with Washington Mutual, & maybe even Citicorp.

neodemes said...

"Clients got what they were promised which was a discharge of their mortgage after the lenders default of not answering the presentment."


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

What a putz.

mogel007 said...

The housing bill, which earmarks $300 billion to backstop mortgages after lenders agree to lower mortgage payments, is "a step in the right direction" but "doesn't do enough," he says, predicting the government will ultimately need to spend more than $1 trillion.

Roubini's main concern stems from a view that the "housing recession is not bottoming by any standards," in contrast to hopeful comments from Paulson on Fox News and Barron's last weekend.

The economist believes U.S. home prices will ultimately fall 30% from their peak -- vs. 18% to date according to the S&P Case-Shiller Index -- "before bottoming out some point in 2010."

In the interim, the negative wealth effect of declining home values and increase in "underwater" mortgages will lead to more Americans walking away from their homes. Such "jingle mail" threatens to ultimately cost $1 trillion in credit losses, wiping out 75% of the capital of U.S. financial institutions, Roubini warns.

mogel007 said...

Nemo said: "What a putz."
_________________________________

Nemo, were clients promised that the Dorean Group was going to pay off their mortgages with federal reserve notes? No!
Were clients promised that the presentment would be presented & the banks would fall over & play dead never to be heard from again? No again.

Were clients promised that there would be no litigation against them? No again.

I think you are the putz for your own stupid expectations!

Oh by the way, I received my 4th letter from the Dept. of Justice today insinuating or reinforcing again that I was a victim too. Also the only relevant thing said was that Bill Julian will be imprisoned until Jan. 2011, & won't be eligible for parole as if he is some threat to the victims. LOL

Bill Julian is a threat, but Fannie Mae & Freddie Mac going insolvent isn't. Go figure. The government is going to have to spend 1 trillion dollars to save the housing crisis, & in the criminal trial there were no substantial financial damages even talked about, other than what was decided of $512,000 or whatever that amount was which is quite neglible in comparison to current events.

notorial dissent said...

pure Moogie blather
No, I don't think it's irrelevant, I think it proves that the Dorean Group issue is a political issue with a political agenda.

Moogems, aside from the fact that the use of the words "I think" by you is oxymoronic in the extreme, what you think is equally irrelevant, as has been proven on so very many occasions. For it to have been political there would have to have been someone beyond the handful of suckers the dim duo pulled in, and those of us who like watching train wrecks, to have been aware of them, given a damn, or cared in the slightest to have been interested, and quite frankly, even at this point they don’t qualify as a blip on anyone's radar, except their victims, there were and are non entities. They were and are incompetent con artists, who managed to do just about everything wrong, and got caught. There is and was nothing political about it, they broke the law, they got caught, they were guilty. It just proves they were committing a crime, and got caught and convicted.


even more Moogie blather
Mail fraud is a joke the way the prosecution argued the case

Right, Mail Fraud is a joke, a joke worth what 10/20 years a pop, and they got popped. The crime was in using the mails to commit a fraud, has nothing to do with against whom it was committed. The act of using the mails was the crime. Strangely enough, for not having anything relevant, they didn’t seem to have any trouble getting a conviction, now did they???

lots and lots of Moogie blather
Course the North Carolina Case & the Attorney General proved that the State's were there to protect the clients anyway, & that wasn't the Federal Court's responsibility since the dorean clients weren't a jurisdictional hook to get jurisdiction in the Federal Court:

The Federal and State cases were over two entirely different matters and for two entirely different reasons. The state court was dealing with a state violation, and dealt with it in the way it needed to be done. The Federal case was over a violation of a Federal law and was dealt with as it needed to be dealt with.


yet more Moogie hooey
"The fraud if real within the Dorean Process would not fall within the jurisdiction of the Federal Government IF THE FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS WERE ABSENT."

Wrong as usual, all that was required to bring the Feds in was using the mails, wires, etc, which is what happened.

Moogie truly clueless
There's probably a great difference of what was shown to the grand jury to get an indictment compared to what was argued in the criminal trial anyway. When those huge differences are shown, the appellate court will have to let the Dorean Group go free.

And another schwing and a miss. With your vaunted knowledge of the law and everything Moogster, I would have thought you would have known, that all that is required to be presented to a grand jury is that there is sufficient evidence of a crime having been committed, and that there is evidence that such and such person committed the crimes, not that they actually committed them, that is what a trial is for.

Again, all it took was using the mails and it was a Federal matter, the fact that it was against a financial institution, was just icing on the cake.

Rave on Moogs, wrong yet again, but then no surprise there either, just keep right on raving.

Moogey still ignoring the elephant in the room
Honest services to DOREAN clients don't constitute mail fraud, so still no federal jurisdiction.

Here we go with another oxymoron. The words honest and Dorean in the same sentence that are on a level beyond hilarious. There was not one action from beginning to end of and by the Dorean group that was either honest, honorable, or legal.

What the financial institutions may or may not have done is entirely and exactly irrelevant to the crimes and actions of dim and dimmer. For a supposedly religious boy, you seem to have no clear understanding to the old addage of “two wrongs do not make a right”.

and Moogie blows it again
Kind of sad when a company like GMAC can make more money giving supposed loans than selling their product which is vehicles.

Wrong again, gee, I never get tired of saying that, and you keep providing the opportunity. GMAC did not, and does not manufacture cars, and never has. They were and are a financial services organization, at one time owned by GM to provide financing to their dealers. They are no longer owned by GM and are still in the financial business.

mogel007 said...

Notarial dissent says: "There was not one action from BEGINNING TO END of and by the Dorean group that was either honest, honorable, or legal.
________________________________

I thought only God knew all things from beginning to end. Maybe we can add you to that list too then.

mogel007 said...

Notarial Dissent says: "and those of us who like watching train wrecks, to have been aware of them, given a damn, or cared in the slightest to have been interested, and quite frankly, even at this point they don’t qualify as a blip on anyone's radar, except their victims,"
______________________________

You care about things that you spend your time with. You obviously spend alot of time on this board, regardless of the lies you tell indicating a different feeling.

Accounts of Judge Alsup losing his temper towards the prosecution when they did & said stupid things, showed he CARED QUITE A BIT ON THE OUTCOME OF THE CASE, showing his prejudicial attitude, irregardless of your naiive and narrow minded outlook that no one else cared.

And your own admission that the victims will probably not get anything back with your cavalier attitude, shows that you certainly don't care about the victims/dorean clients at all. The only thing you care about is watching a train wreck obviously. For you & Nemo, it's just pure entertainment value as you both have maintained.

mogel007 said...

From Demon lady's own observation and a good testimony about Judge Alsup, since she is anti-dorean in all respects:

"The prosecution walked Flea through his broker agreement with Dorean. Nothing particular exciting. When the jury is present, the judge is friendly, affable, professional, and helpful. When they're gone, HE IS PISSED AS HELL AT THE DFENDANTS, and NONE TO KEEN ON THE JOB BEING DONE BY THE PROSECUTOR."

Why would Judge Alsup care about the performance of the prosecution if he doesn't have a financial or political interest in what is going on?

Another instance:

"Once the jury was gone, the Judge, started to chew out the prosecution, but stopped when he realized he'd just be giving Johnson & Heineman ammunition when cross starts tomorrow."

"OCC guy stated that he researched the Swiss Bank that the Dorean Group was using in relation to their phony bond scheme, and there were no such business at that address in Switzerland. There was only a flower shop. When the Judge asked WHAT RESEARCH HE'D DONE TO PROVE THAT, OCC guy said he'd looked it up on the internet. LOL The judge WAS NOT HAPPY."

mogel007 said...

Speaking of mail fraud, "If Congress wished to extend the mail fraud statute to extend to property rights OUTSIDE OF SPURIOUS COIN, OBLIGATION, SECURITY, OR OTHER ARTICLE, AND THOSE INHERENT WITHIN THESE NOUNS, THEY ARE CONSIDERED COMPETENT ENOUGH TO HAVE EXPRESSED IT CLEARLY." Congress did not however, so Dr. Caligary, you are WRONG, WRONG, & WRONG AGAIN.

mogel007 said...

Judge Alsup's prejudice & ignornance of reality is shown in his own statements:

"Never in the history of the universe can the defense theories on banking have ANY MERIT."

In instruction 18, he states that the "banks are allowed to receive deposits from customers and then to use those deposits to make loans to borrowers; banks are also allowed to borrow money from the Federal Rserve Bank and then to use those funds to make loans to borrowers; and banks are free to use their own equity to make loans to borrowers.

The testimony of Walker Todd the Federal Reserve Expert witness in support of the Fed publications in evidence made it VERY CLEAR that the bank does not loan out other depositor funds but creates the money ON THE SPOT in a lending transaction. The banks are not free to go to the Fed which was made equally clear in that they have to bring assets to the Fed to borrow. Lastly banks are prohibited by law from lending their equity which is measured by their capital stock as stated by revised statute 62 also known as the National Banking Act which is still positive law."

With all the lies Judge Alsup told the petite jury, it's no wonder the Dorean Group were convicted.

Mail fraud involves property rights being violated. If the financial institutions in fact had no property rights due to no proof being offered in the court record, they certainly can't be the victims, even though they were pled as the victims in the criminal case & later dismissed as the real victims.

"The indictment was pled to a damage of certain alleged lenders-financial institutions through a scheme and device for some money damage suggested to be a mortgage loan where such proof WAS NEVER OFFERED INTO EVIDENCE and in its absence was amended by the prosecution WITH THE SUGGESTION OF THE BENCH to be by a convergence theory deemed too narrow for the 1341 statute. Later they attempt to make a nexus between the collection of moneys from
Dorean clients to be the vehicle for the damages to the financial institutions that never appeared at anytime during the trial. Even if the clients were a possible nexus their connection TO NOTHING, no property right or money right, IS A NEXUS TO NOTHING AND CANNOT BE CONSTRUED AS ANYTHING BUT IRRELEVANT SURPLUSAGE INTENDED TO CONFUSE AND DECEIVE THE JURY AND DEFENDANTS AS TO THE NATURE AND CAUSE OF THE ACTION."

The Dorean process was a scheme because.............

No one really knows, because no evidence was ever presented that the financial institutions had any property rights, no original promissory notes were ever presented, no expert witnesses of the financial institutions were ever presented, no books & accounting records were ever presented, no postal workers ever testified to mail fraud. In fact the petite jury were precluded from the facts because they were given instructions of law from Judge Alsup that precluded facts from being relevant and absent.

dr. ira gilac said...

...just mo slop here....dun eat too much....feed to yo dawg insted.....see if he will eet it?......

mogel007 said...

Notarial Dissent said: "The state court was dealing with a state violation, and dealt with it in the way it needed to be done."
________________________________

What North Carolina State violation are you referring to specifically?

dr. ira gilac said...

yo juggns...my which slopped....wha tome is it???


look like yo daysees are cummin' to the end...


coos, yo like it dat weigh asnyways..... →O

dr. ira gilac said...

soon juggns yo gonna haf ta sit up strate...i no that it hard fo yo, coss the bakers haf bin givin it to yo in the end...so yo like to be stoped ova all the time.....

but, soon yo and yo crocked sherfs ho wurk fo yo gonna haf ta strated up....

if yo dun bleef it, then go here:

www.onesteward.org/

dr. ira gilac said...

On June 4, 1963, President John Fitzgerald Kennedy signed an Executive Order that gave the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA FEDERAL RESERVE BOARD notice it would soon be looking for a new country to exploit. By signing Executive Order 11110, the FEDERAL RESERVE BOARD would no longer be in control of printing, issuing, accepting and funding the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA's loans for currency. As the Constitution of the united states of America mandates, the power to issue currency would return to the Secretary of the Treasury Department of the united states of America without going through the Federal Reserve Board first. A collective sucking of air must have rang piously through the hallowed halls of the Central Banks of the world. Others had taken a stab at the illegal, privately owned, Federal Reserve. Even Thomas Edison had expressed that if the U.S. Government could issue a bond for currency, surely it could issue a dollar bill. Upon the eve of the creation of the Federal Reserve Board, Congressman Charles Lindberg Sr.( the grandfather of the famous aviator of the same name) said "The money trust deliberately caused the 1907 money panic and thereby forced Congress to create a National Monetary Commission which led to the ultimate creation of the privately owned Federal Reserve Bank. The Federal Reserve Act establishes the most gigantic monetary trust on earth. When the President signs the bill, the invisible government of the Monetary Powers will be legalized. The people must make a declaration of independence to relieve themselves from the Monetary Powers, by taking control of Congress!... The worst legislative crime of the ages is perpetrated by this banking bill. The caucus and the party bosses have again operated and prevented the people from getting the benefit of their own government!"

Harsh words, yes. Now these words, in effect, were coming from someone who held the power in his own hands to actually back them up!

Now the Department of the Treasury had been given the authority "to issue silver certificates against any silver bullion, silver, or standard silver dollars in the Treasury." As the "Moneychangers" of

the world scrambled and scoured the want ads for countries in need of a parasite, the nation's new currency, backed by the existing silver in the vaults of the treasury was starting to hit the streets. $4 billion dollars of the newly resurrected United States Notes were now in the hands of the people. New $2 and $5 bills were crunching and smelling of fresh ink, unencumbered by the interest that fouled the smell of the notes from the Federal Reserve.

Now there was real hope and tangible change being presented to the United States. This wasn't some dream or vision that a high ranking official had received while resting. This was showing promise. The new notes issued by the united states of America were interest free and tax free. They were backed by silver and so carried intrinsic value, unlike the Federal Reserve Notes that were worth about three pennies (what it cost to print them). President Kennedy had beaten the "windmills" of finance. A light shone brightly from within Camelot!

On June 02, 1963, South Vietnamese President Ngo Dihn Diem was assassinated following a military coup. This set the stage for what was to come later in the decade of the sixties. Ten days later

President Kennedy was reported to have stated,"The high office of the President has been used to foment a plot to destroy the Americans freedom and before I leave office I must inform the Citizen of his plight." President Kennedy chose not to listen to the agents of the "moneychangers" that most assuredly were whispering warnings, offering concessions,and desperately trying to keep the beast alive from deep inside their "windmills."

Ten days later, President John Fitzgerald Kennedy, was shot and killed while traveling in a motorcade in Dallas, Texas.

As quickly as the new U.S. notes were handed to the people of the united states of America, they were gathered and replaced with the Federal Reserve Note, born in interest and iniquity. The new $10, $20, $50, and $100 U.S. notes were never released from the mint and faded away without another thought. According to the U.S. Secret Service, 99% of all the notes circulating in 1999 were Federal Reserve Notes. All this in spite of the fact this Executive Order was never amended.

Lyndon Baines Johnson, a Texas school teacher, would become President of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. War would escalate in Asia. The U.S. and the U.S.S.R. would engage in a nuclear arms race that would devastate the economies of both countries while the "Money Interests" filled their coffers with the blood and the gold of both lands. But there was a time, not that long ago when hope sprang up for the free people of the united states of America. There was a time when a people slightly better off than slaves were given a shred of compassion. For one, brief, shining moment, there was hope. There was Camelot.

hho@uniontel.net

dr. ira gilac said...

By signing Executive Order 11110, the FEDERAL RESERVE BOARD would no longer be in control of printing, issuing, accepting and funding the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA's loans for currency







they day go agian... XO#1111



day jes cant get rif o' deese f###ing elfens.....

dr. ira gilac said...

jus ask jugggins...he got his 11" rubber ducky underneath when he sittin on his behind his bench...

dr. ira gilac said...

day go dem 11's agin....



July 18, 2008

The Fed's emergency rescue plan for the financial markets is hopelessly flawed. It's a scattershot approach that doesn't address the real source of the problem; an unregulated, unsustainable structured finance system that emerged in full-force after 2000 and spawned a shadow banking system that creates trillions of dollars of credit without sufficient capital reserves. This is the heart of the problem and it needs to be debated openly. The present system doesn't work; it's as simple as that. It makes no sense to provide trillions of dollars of taxpayer money to shore up a system that is essentially dysfunctional. It's just throwing money down a rat-hole.

The Federal Reserve and US Treasury want a blank check to prop up Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the two war-horses of the mortgage industry, that currently underwrite nearly 80 per cent of all new mortgages in the US. But by any objective standard both of these GSEs are already insolvent. Thus, the taxpayer is being asked to rescue a failed industry that has been used for private gain so that speculators will not have to suffer the losses. Even worse, Fannie and Freddie have written hundreds of billions of dollars worth of mortgages that have not yet defaulted, but will certainly default within the next two years. This is bound to batter the already faltering economy.

The bad paper held by Fannie and Freddie are mortgages that were made to unqualified applicants who are presently losing their homes in record numbers. Their loans were approved because there was no functioning regulatory body to oversee their issuance and because the mortgages were transformed into complex securities that were sold to credulous investors around the world. The ratings were fixed to meet the requirements of their employers, the investment banks, which marketed these exotic bonds to foreign banks, insurance companies and hedge funds. That puts Fannie and Freddie at the center of a system that needs radical surgery to eradicate the bad paper. If this doesn't happen in a timely fashion, then foreign investors will stop purchasing US debt and the dollar will crash. By creating a backstop for Fannie and Freddie, the Fed is linking US sovereign debt with mortgages and derivatives that are already known to be fraudulent. This is a big mistake. According to Merrill Lynch, the US is already facing a long-term "financing crisis" as the weakening US economy and sluggish consumer spending could signal an end to the $700 billion in foreign investment that covers America's current account deficit. By assuming the GSE's enormous debts, the Bush administration is just speeding this process along and inviting disaster.

Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson(?) has been intentionally oblique about the implications of the proposed bailout. On Tuesday, he delivered a statement in front of the massive stone columns of the Department of the Treasury, a towering monolith that arouses feelings of confidence in rock-solid institutions. He made it clear that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac would have the "explicit" backing of the US government:

"First, as a liquidity backstop, the plan includes a temporary increase in the line of credit the GSEs have with Treasury. Treasury would determine the terms and conditions for accessing the line of credit and the amount to be drawn.

Second, to ensure the GSEs have access to sufficient capital to continue to serve their mission, the plan includes temporary authority for Treasury to purchase equity in either of the two GSEs if needed.

Third, to protect the financial system from systemic risk going forward, the plan strengthens the GSE regulatory reform legislation currently moving through Congress by giving the Federal Reserve a consultative role in the new GSE regulator's process for setting capital requirements and other prudential standards."

It was an impressive performance from a public relations point of view, but it didn't fool anyone on Wall Street. What Wall Street wants is details not blather. Paulson gave no specifics about how much money the government would provide or what the nature of the new relationship would be; conservatorship, recievorship, nationalization? What is it?

The truth is that Paulson was deliberately vague because he and friend Bernanke would like to have it both ways; they'd like to provide a liquidity backstop and an endless line of credit for the two GSE's without formally nationalizing them. That would avoid the further dilution of stock values while keeping the US government from taking another $5 trillion of mortgage debt onto their balance sheet. It is a delicate balancing act, but Paulson seems to think he carried it off. He's wrong, though, and volatility in the stock market proves it. Investors are clearly skittish about the new arrangement. They want to know the facts about the government's commitment. Paulson is discovering that deceiving investors is not as easy as duping the public about fictional WMD or Niger uranium. Sometimes even the dullest person can grasp the most complex matters when it comes to his own money.

Fannie and Freddie have been insolvent for ages, but it hasn't stopped lawmakers from pushing the envelope and loading more debt on their balance sheets. Here's how Barron's summed it up more than six months ago:

"Fannie's balance sheet is larded with soft assets and understated liabilities that would leave the company ill-equipped to weather a serious financial crisis. And spiraling mortgage defaults and falling home prices could bring a tsunami of credit losses over the next two years that will severely test Fannie's solvency.

But, if the truth be known, a considerable portion of Fannie's losses also came from speculative forays into higher-yielding but riskier mortgage products like subprime, Alt-A (a category between subprime and prime in credit quality) and dicey mortgages requiring monthly payments of interest only or less. For example, Fannie's $314 billion of Alt-A -- often called liar loans because borrowers provide little documentation -- accounted for 31.4% of the company's credit losses while making up just 11.9% of its $2.5 trillion single-family-home credit book. Fannie was clearly looking for love -- and market share -- in some of the wrong places."

Rampant speculation, risky investments, and Enron-type accounting; hardly the stuff of solid portfolios. That's why the two mortgage giants are stumbling headlong towards oblivion despite the Treasury's panicky relief operation. By last Friday Fannie's stock had fallen 47 per cent while Freddie was down 50 per cent. The public may still be in the dark about what is going on, but investors have a pretty good grip on the situation; they can see the great birds are already circling overhead and its just a matter of time before they descend on their prey. Paulson's attempts to muddy the water have amounted to nothing. The fact remains that the two biggest mortgage-lenders in the world are busted and last week's stock sell-off was tantamount to a run on the country's largest bank. Paulson's statement was really nothing more than a eulogy for the mortgage industry; a few heartfelt words over the rigid corpse of a close friend.

When the housing market started to tumble and Wall Street's "securitization" model froze-up, Fannie had to take the lion's share of the mortgages to keep the real estate market hobbling along. In a two year period, between the housing peak in 2005 and 2007, Fannie went from roughly 40 per cent of the market to about 80 per cent. The Congress even enlarged the size of the mortgages they could underwrite from $417,000 to over $700,000. The prospect of bankruptcy never diminished congress's generosity.

Fannie and Freddie currently own or underwrite roughly half of the nation’s $12 trillion mortgage market. Basically, every home mortgage lender depends on them for financing. Their shares are owned by individual investors and banks around the world. Foreign investors have always believed that the GSE bonds were as risk-free as US government Treasuries. Now they are beginning to wonder. (Foreign central banks, led by China and Russia, hold at least $925 billion in U.S. agency debt, including bonds sold by Freddie and Fannie, according to official U.S. statistics)

Whatever happens to Fannie, the loss of investor confidence will send long term interest higher as investors demand bigger returns for the risk they're taking on GSE bonds. That'll put a straitjacket on home sales which are already flagging from soaring inventory and falling prices. Higher rates could bring the whole housing market to a standstill.

The Fed's cheap credit policy under Greenspan created an artificial demand for housing which ballooned into the biggest equity bubble in history. Low interest rates are a subsidy which naturally lead to speculation and asset-inflation. At a certain point, however, the endless debt-pyramiding reaches its apex and the whole mechanism switches into reverse. Now the economy has entered deleveraging-hell where everything is primal blackness and the gnashing of teeth, the flip-side of speculative rapture.

By some estimates, Freddie Mac has a negative net-worth of $17 billion. It's basically insolvent, although Paulson would like to see the charade go on a while longer. Investors purchased another $3 billion of the two GSEs last Monday, but the appetite for failing bonds is diminishing? What's certain is that the collapse of Fannie and Freddie would be a watershed event and a mortal blow to the US financial system. $5 trillion in shaky mortgage-debt can't be easily swept under the rug and ignored. Interest rates on everything would quickly rise; credit would become scarcer, economic growth would shrivel, unemployment would soar, and the dollar will plummet. As the two mortgage giants continue to get whipsawed by higher priced capital and waning investment, US government debt will likely to lose its much-vaunted triple A credit rating. On Friday, credit default swaps on government debt doubled, a sign that investors are losing confidence that the US will be able to manage its twin deficits or pay off its debts. It's the end of the road for Washington's free lunch throng and for a paper dollar that isn't backed by much of anything except music videos, fast food and smart-bombs.

PAULSON'S POWER GRAB

What Paulson is really wants is for congress to allow the Fed to regulate the financial system without congressional oversight. Paulson's so-called blueprint for financial regulation is a blatant power-grab meant to expand the authority of the banking oligarchy giving them unlimited power over the markets. Journalist Barry Grey sums it up like this in his article on "US Bailout of Mortgage Giants: The politics of plutocracy":

"The plan outlined by Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson would give him virtually unlimited and unilateral authority to pump tens of billions of dollars of public funds into the mortgage finance companies. At the same time, the Federal Reserve Board announced that it would allow the companies to directly borrow Fed funds... The Democrats...now march in lockstep with the minority party to rush through laws demanded by Wall Street... The buying of legislators and their votes by corporate interests is carried out openly and shamelessly. Members of Frank’s House Financial Services Committee received over $18 million from financial services, insurance and real estate firms this year. Frank himself raised over $1.2 million, almost half of which came from finance and related industries...Senator Dodd’s top contributor in the 2003-2008 election cycle was Citigroup, followed by SAC Capital Partners. He raised $4.25 million from securities and investment firms.

Senator Schumer’s top contributor was likewise Citigroup. He raised $1.4 million from securities and investment firms, his most lucrative corporate sector."

The smell of political corruption is overpowering, and yet, the plan is moving forward regardless. Even if Paulson's plan worked in the short term, the damage would be enormous. It would place the country's regulatory powers and purse-strings in the hands of the same amoral banksters who created this mess to begin with. It is the fast-track to corporate feudalism on a nationwide scale.

PITFALLS FOR THE GSEs

The biggest problem facing Fannie and Freddie is that wary investors will not roll over the debt of the two companies which will precipitate a collapse. This is where it pays to have people who can be trusted in positions of power. Henry Paulson is the worst thing that ever happened to the US Treasury. Paulson is to finance capitalism what Rumsfeld is to military strategy. To say that Paulson is lacking in credibility is an understatement. Nothing he says can be taken at face-value. When Paulson says "the worst is behind us" or the "subprime crisis is contained" or the Bush administration "supports a strong dollar policy"; most people know it is a fabrication. Besides, Paulson is completely out of his depth in the present crisis. His appearances on TV, with the beads of sweat glistening on his forehead, and his foolish repetition of the same stale mantra is eroding confidence in the financial system and sending waves of panic rippling through Wall Street. Enough is enough. He needs to go.

If the administration was serious about changing direction they would dump Paulson and reinstate Paul Volcker. Whatever one thinks about Volcker, his presence would calm the markets and send a message that the adults were back in charge. But that won't happen. The Bush team still thinks they can finesse their way through the thicket of investor skepticism. That means that catastrophe is inevitable as more and more investors pick up their bets and head for the exits.

TIME IS RUNNING OUT

Whatever the administration decides to do; time is short and they have one chance to get it right. The Treasury needs to find a way to ring-fence the garbage bonds and pray that the investing public won't dump their holdings in a panic run on the market. Either way, it's a gamble and there's no guarantee of success. The Wall Street Journal outlined the doomsday scenario if Paulson's plan fails:

"Falling house prices and nonpaying homeowners cause the value of the trillions of dollars in outstanding debt held by these government-sponsored enterprises (Fannie and Freddie) to plunge. Many banks have balance sheets stuffed full of this paper. They face huge losses, which some can't survive. They and other investors, such as foreign central banks, then dump the GSE paper.

Fannie and Freddie would end up unable to lend, or at least to take up anything like their current 80% share of the U.S. mortgage market, further punishing the reeling housing market. This would add another twist to the spiral of falling prices, credit losses and failing lenders.

What should they do? First, devise a plan -- and fast. There is no time to dither." (Wall Street Journal)

If foreign banks and investors ditch their GSE debt; it will send shockwaves through the global economy. But if the Treasury provides unlimited funding for a sinking operation, it's likely to trigger a sell-off of the dollar. It's a lose-lose situation. For now, bond holders are sitting-tight even though the stock is tanking, but for how long? They've already been taken to the cleaners on hundreds of billions of dollars of mortgage-backed garbage; now there are rumors that the US government won't back agency debt. What kind of shabby shell-game is the US playing anyway?

New York Times:

“If people lose faith in Fannie and Freddie, then the whole system freezes up, and nobody can buy a house, and the entire housing market can crash,” said Paul Miller of the Friedman, Billings, Ramsey Group in Arlington, Va. “There’s a fine line between having faith and losing it, and sometimes it’s unclear when it has disappeared. But when investors cross that line, bad things happen very quickly.”

And it affects more than the housing market, too. The bond and equities markets are handcuffed to real estate and they're already listing from the slowdown in investment. The Fed thought they could keep the whole mess from going sideways by opening up "auction facilities" where the banks could get low interest capital in exchange for their mortgage-backed junk. But the banks have curtailed their lending and there's bigger trouble ahead. Bridgewater Associates issued a warning last week that losses to the banking system would exceed $1.6 trillion, four times original estimates and enough to crash the entire banking system. So far, banks have only written down $450 billion, which means that they are only 25 per cent of the way through the current credit storm. Defaults are liable to skyrocket as hundreds of undercapitalized banks turn to a grossly underfunded FDIC ($52 billion in reserves) to cover the losses of their depositors. The prospect of a humongous taxpayer bailout seems nearly unavoidable.

What's most disturbing is that nothing has been done to restore the markets to a functional model. The Fed's strategy is still to try to keep the relatively new "structured finance" model (with all it's bizarre-named debt instruments and derivatives) in place even though it failed its first stress-test and has demonstrated that it cannot withstand even moderate downward movement in the market. The current model is kaput; there needs to be a Plan B or the Fed is just wasting its time.

Fannie's demise comes at a particularly difficult time for the banking system. According to a report by Paul Kasriel, Chief Economist at Northern Trust:

"The sharpest 13-week contraction in bank credit” since data were first available in 1973. Banks simply don’t have the capital on hand to avail “themselves of the cheap credit the Fed is offering to fund them at.”....This is what it means to be in a “credit crunch.” Banks have suffered hundreds of billions in losses, forcing them to pull credit out of the economy. Every time you read an article about banks cutting credit lines, exiting lending businesses, or eliminating mortgage products it represents more bank credit drying up." (Option Armageddon, "Understanding Bernanke")

Bank credit is drying up because the capital is being destroyed (from foreclosures and downgraded assets) faster than anytime in history. We are just now feeling the first stiff breezes from a Force-5 deflationary hurricane set to touch down in 2009. Fannie and Freddie are teetering towards insolvency while the country is entering the most vicious downward cycle since the Great Depression. Higher interest rates, negative home equity, mounting credit card debt, auto loan debt, commercial real estate debt and tightening lending standards will only curtail consumer spending more putting greater pressure on the dollar.

The Fed will have to be selective; not everything can be saved. Significant parts of the financial system will be reduced to ashes. It would be wiser to clear the brush away from as many of the solvent institutions as possible and prepare for the worst. Otherwise, the whole system is at risk of contagion. Hundreds of local and regional banks are expected to go under. (the average small bank has 67% of its assets in real estate) It can't be avoided. They are holding too much bad paper and no way to make up for the losses. They're following the same path as the 250 mortgage lenders that vaporised in the subprime meltdown. They couldn't be saved either.

The bigger investment banks are in trouble too. That's why the SEC has finally decided to act as a regulator and go after short-sellers:

"The Securities and Exchange Commission announced an emergency action aimed at reducing short-selling aimed at Wall Street brokerage firms, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, and will immediately begin considering new rules to extend new requirements to the rest of the market."

The SEC never took an interest in naked shorting of stocks (or commodities speculators) while its fat-cat friends in the big brokerage houses were raking in billions. Now that many of these same institutions, including Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, are in the crosshairs, SEC chief Christopher Cox is rushing to their rescue. It is utter duplicity, but it illustrates an important point; the system is cannibalizing itself just like Karl Marx predicted over 100 years ago. Unchecked greed is inevitably self-destructive.

A growing number of market analysts are beginning to notice the storm clouds forming on the horizon. The Royal Bank of Scotland has advised clients to brace for a full-fledged crash in global stock and credit markets over the next three months. The Bank of international Settlements (BIS) made a similarly ominous warning that the credit crisis could lead world economies into a crash on a scale not seen since the 1930s. The bank suggests that government officials and market analysts have not fully grasped the financial turmoil that could result from the mortgage crisis and its effects of the global economic system. The body points out that the Great Depression was not anticipated because people ignored the implicit danger of "complex credit instruments, a strong appetite for risk, rising levels of household debt and long-term imbalances in the world currency system."

Ron Paul (R-Texas) is one of the few members of congress who has shown that he has a grasp of the impending economic disaster now facing the country if corrective action is not taken swiftly. In a speech he gave last week on the floor of the House, he said:

"There are reasons to believe this coming crisis is different and bigger than the world has ever experienced...The financial crisis, still in its early stages, is apparent to everyone: gasoline prices over $4 a gallon; skyrocketing education and medical-care costs; the collapse of the housing bubble; the bursting of the NASDAQ bubble; stock markets plunging; unemployment rising;, massive underemployment; excessive government debt; and unmanageable personal debt. Little doubt exists as to whether we’ll get stagflation. The question that will soon be asked is: When will the stagflation become an inflationary depression? "

The troubles at Fannie and Freddie are symptomatic of more deeply rooted problems related to abusive lending and the unsustainable expansion of credit. We've now reached our debt limit and the bills must be repaid or written off. The Bush administration is hoping to reflate the bubble by (stealthily) recapitalizing the GSEs, but it won't be easy. As one blogger put it, we have reached "peak credit" and have nowhere to go except down.

Economist Michael Hudson summed it up like this:

"The reality is that Fannie, Freddie and the FHA gave a patina of confidence to irresponsible lending and outright fraud. This confidence game led them to guarantee some $5.3 trillion of mortgages, and to keep $1.6 trillion more on their own books to back the bonds they issued to institutional investors."

It was a scam of Biblical proportions and now it is all starting to unravel. Bush's "ownership society" was a cheap parlor trick engineered by the Fed's low interest rates to trigger massive speculation and shift wealth from one class to another. Now, the housing bubble has crashed and the excruciating reality of insolvency is beginning to sink in.

Michael Hudson, again:

"All one hears is a barrage of claims that the government must preserve the financial fictions of Fanny Mae and Freddie Mac in order to 'save the market.' The usual hypocrisy is being brought to bear claiming that all this is necessary to 'save the middle class,' even as what is being saved are its debts, not its assets...The “way of life” that is being saved is not that of home ownership, but debt peonage to support the concentration of wealth at the top of the economic pyramid.

Mortgages are the major debts of most American families. In this role, real estate debt has become the basis for the commercial banking system, and hence the basis for the wealthiest 10 percent of the population who hold the bottom 90 percent in debt. That is what Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and “the market” are all about." (Michael Hudson; "Why the Bail Out of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac is Bad Economic Policy", counterpunch.org)

The housing boom never had anything to do with Bush's Utopian-sounding "ownership society". It was always just a swindle to enrich the banking establishment and divert middle class wealth to ruling class elites.

Mike Whitney lives in Washington state and can be reached at fergiewhitney@msn.com

Dr. Caligari said...

mogel007 said...
Speaking of mail fraud, "If Congress wished to extend the mail fraud statute to extend to property rights OUTSIDE OF SPURIOUS COIN, OBLIGATION, SECURITY, OR OTHER ARTICLE, AND THOSE INHERENT WITHIN THESE NOUNS, THEY ARE CONSIDERED COMPETENT ENOUGH TO HAVE EXPRESSED IT CLEARLY." Congress did not however, so Dr. Caligary, you are WRONG, WRONG, & WRONG AGAIN.


I don't know what you're quoting from, but here is the mail fraud statute in its entirety:

"Section 1341. Frauds and swindles

Whoever, having devised or intending to devise any scheme or
artifice to defraud, or for obtaining money or property by means of
false or fraudulent pretenses, representations, or promises,
or to
sell, dispose of, loan, exchange, alter, give away, distribute,
supply, or furnish or procure for unlawful use any counterfeit or
spurious coin, obligation, security, or other article, or anything
represented to be or intimated or held out to be such counterfeit
or spurious article, for the purpose of executing such scheme or
artifice or attempting so to do, places in any post office or
authorized depository for mail matter, any matter or thing whatever
to be sent or delivered by the Postal Service, or deposits or
causes to be deposited any matter or thing whatever to be sent or
delivered by any private or commercial interstate carrier, or takes
or receives therefrom, any such matter or thing, or knowingly
causes to be delivered by mail or such carrier according to the
direction thereon, or at the place at which it is directed to be
delivered by the person to whom it is addressed, any such matter or
thing, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than
20 years, or both. If the violation affects a financial
institution, such person shall be fined not more than $1,000,000 or
imprisoned not more than 30 years, or both."

What part of "any scheme" don't you understand?

dr. ira gilac said...

dr. ira gilac vs. Dr. Caligari

Good† <<<<<<< >>>>>> EVIL©

333 <<<<<<< >>>>>> 666©

dr. ira gilac said...

July 23, 2008

Quote of the Day:

"No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury . . . nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation." - Fifth Amendment to the Constitution

Subject: End Asset Forfeiture!

Civil asset forfeiture is government seizure of property or cash owned by individuals not charged with any crime. Law enforcement agents can seize a piece of property if they merely suspect it was used in a crime, whereas its owner must prove innocence to get it back. This is an inversion of justice and a gross violation of the Bill of Rights. But if you think the federal courts will protect innocent property owners, think again . . .

* A police dog's sniff of bundles of cash totaling $124,700 was used as sufficient evidence for the government to confiscate the money, even though a large percentage of currency in circulation contains traces of narcotics, and the government couldn't establish how or when the money was used in criminal activity.

* An Ohio man who kept a small amount of medical marijuana and who also kept his life savings in his own home saw the money taken by the FBI – even though he was never charged with marijuana possession.

* Individuals who consent to police searches can lose money kept in their vehicles – even where there is no trace of illegal drugs or suspicion of illegal activity.

* A woman charged with illegally selling medical equipment saw her assets frozen by the government, on the grounds that her wealth was from ill-gotten gains - preventing her from hiring adequate council to defend herself, as is her right under the 6th Amendment.

Civil asset forfeiture laws breed conflict-of-interest . . .

* Federal law enforcement seized $1.6 billion last year – triple the amount four years ago.

* The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives ordered Leathermen toolkits for their agents, engraved with the motto “Always Think Forfeiture.” Fortunately, the program was halted thanks to the objection of Rep. Bill Sali, but it expresses the attitude that federal law enforcement agents should put plunder ahead of the interests of justice.

* States seized $1.52 billion in 2007; the State of Texas by itself collected $125 million, and many police department budgets are reliant on forfeiture, or “addicted to drug money.” This encourages them to seize the money after drug sales have been made, rather than keeping the drugs away from children – defeating the nominal purpose of the War on Drugs.



Unfortunately, federal courts have used twisted logic to uphold civil asset forfeitures. They have contended that since the property itself is condemned, and not its owner, norms like “innocent until proven guilty” do not apply. But if the government can seize your life savings, or your house, or the car you need to get to work, the effective punishment can be as bad or worse than the penalties imposed upon conviction of a crime – yet the owner of the seized property possesses no due process rights.

Because the courts will not act to end civil asset forfeitures, Congress must. A “compromise” asset forfeiture bill will only lead to more abuses and outrages. Civil asset forfeiture must be abolished. Tell Congress to . . .

* Require full Fourth, Fifth, Sixth, and Eighth Amendment protection for all federal proceedings against owners of personal property.

* Permit seizures of criminal profits only upon criminal conviction of its owner.

* Permit seizures of legally-owned property only if its owner is convicted of a crime, to pay for fines, court costs, or restitution.

* Withhold federal funds to all state and local law enforcement agencies that engage in civil asset forfeiture.

* Enforce the 14th Amendment's requirement that “no person shall be deprived of ... property, without due process of law” by allowing victims of state and local seizures to contest forfeitures in federal court.

Please send Congress a message telling them you are outraged by civil asset forfeiture and that it must be abolished. You can do so here.

Also, we made $2,315 progress on our emergency fundraising drive yesterday. They leaves $3,343 to go. If you can help please contribute here.

NOTE: You can remove this funding section if you forward this message to others, or post it on your blog. You can also comment on this message at our blog.

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DownsizeDC.org

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dr. ira gilac said...

Unfortunately, federal courts have used twisted logic to uphold civil asset forfeitures. They have contended that since the property itself is condemned, and not its owner, norms like “innocent until proven guilty” do not apply.





dats coss juggins beans takes it all from yo "in the end... LOLOLLOO!!!

dr. ira gilac said...

but dun worry about tho...juggins will get all "in the end"...and it will hurt!

mogel007 said...

By some estimates, Freddie Mac has a negative net-worth of $17 billion. It's basically insolvent.

Bridgewater Associates issued a warning last week that losses to the banking system would exceed $1.6 trillion, four times original estimates and enough to crash the entire banking system. So far, banks have only written down $450 billion, which means that they are only 25 per cent of the way through the current credit storm.

Defaults are liable to skyrocket as hundreds of undercapitalized banks turn to a grossly underfunded FDIC ($52 billion in reserves) to cover the losses of their depositors. The prospect of a humongous taxpayer bailout seems nearly unavoidable.

mogel007 said...

Dr. Caligari: What part of this statement makes any sense:

Since you want to only take a few words out of context, let's just take off the IMPORTANT PART OF THE LAW & read it & see if it even makes any sense:


"Whoever, having devised or intending to devise ANY SCHEME or
artifice to defraud, or for obtaining money or property by means of false or fraudulent pretenses, representations, or promises, or to sell, dispose of, loan, exchange, alter, give away, distribute, supply, or furnish or procure for unlawful use."

What part of this GOBELEY GOOK makes sense? None of it. It's not even a complete sentence.

Taking the whole law into total context, the ANY FRAUD refers to:
"any counterfeit or
spurious coin, obligation, security, or other article, or anything represented to be or intimated or held out to be such counterfeit or spurious article, for the purpose of executing such scheme or artifice or attempting so to do.

My question to you is: What part of:

"any counterfeit or
spurious coin, obligation, security, or other article, or anything represented to be or intimated or held out to be such counterfeit or spurious article"
don't YOU understand?

The intent of the law was to refer to a specific type of fraud, NOT ALL GENERAL FRAUD THAT EXISTS IN THE WORLD.

neodemes said...

Hey, you want some cheese with that whine, moogie?

You're getting shrill again, btw.

ROFLMAO

dr. ira gilac said...

WTF?


juggns...yo up to yo ole trix again?


im on my puter and all sudden, there is tunder/liting strike and the power goes out for about 3 seconds....have to reset all the house clox...

an loo minardi gonna like this one....

guss wha time it hit??

8:11 est

no sh*t!!

how i no? my computer power went off, but i keep the computer clox set in the lower rite hand coroner of the screen, so i can see it all the time.

unreal!

an this aint no bs eether!

notorial dissent said...

Moogie blather 1
I thought only God knew all things from beginning to end. Maybe we can add you to that list too then.

Not even worth commenting on Moogs, but truly pathetic.

Moogie blather 2
You care about things that you spend your time with. You obviously spend alot of time on this board, regardless of the lies you tell indicating a different feeling.

Moogs, there is a great deal of difference between caring, and being interested, and I am always interested to see how big of an ass you make of your self at any given time.

Moogie blather 3
Accounts of Judge Alsup losing his temper towards the prosecution when they did & said stupid things, showed he CARED QUITE A BIT ON THE OUTCOME OF THE CASE, showing his prejudicial attitude, irregardless of your naiive and narrow minded outlook that no one else cared.

I think he showed remarkable restraint considering the players in this little drama. I know a good many judges who wouldn’t have been as even handed on either side as he was. He certainly cared that the matter was handled and conducted properly, that was his job after all, and as far as I can tell, he did it quite well. Prejudiced towards seeing that justice was carried out, but nothing else, if anything, he gave dim and dimmer far more latitude than they had any right to expect or that they deserved. And nice try at trying to twist my words, but I was referring to the world at large, not the unfortunates who had to deal with this farago of nonsense.

Moogie blather 4
And your own admission that the victims will probably not get anything back with your cavalier attitude, shows that you certainly don't care about the victims/dorean clients at all.

And again, you try and twist something into something that was not said. I have said that the victims will be lucky if they get a fraction of what they lost back, and this is a true statement, simply from the fact that there is so little left to go around, it implied nothing towards the victims, simply stating a fact. I truly wish that there could be some recompense for the victims in this, but dim and dimmer saw to the pointlessness of that, nothing I have any control over or say in.

The trainwreck I referred to is the ongoing self destruction of dim and dimmer, and your continual efforts at making yourself a horse’s behind, which you continue to do with great regularity and ability.

Moogie blather 5
Why would Judge Alsup care about the performance of the prosecution if he doesn't have a financial or political interest in what is going on?

More to the point he is not fond of supposed professionals making a hash of their job, since their inability to do it right could come back to reflect on him, and I don’t think he felt like having the case reviewed for prosecutorial sloppiness or defendant misbehavior.

Moogie blather 6
peaking of mail fraud, "If Congress wished to extend the mail fraud statute to extend to property rights ......

Try actually reading the statute Moogs, it says nothing like what you are claiming, it says using the mails to commit fraud.

Moogie blather 7
Judge Alsup's prejudice & ignornance of reality is shown in his own statements:


The jury instruction is true and correct, and accepted fact by the lega, financial and accounting communities, so it was no error.

The testimony of Walker Todd is a fiction, and has not been entered in any case findable, and even if it were, it would be rebuttable as it is pure fiction from beginning to end.

Moogie blather 8
Mail fraud involves property rights being violated.

Mail fraud involves using the mails to commit fraud, any kind or type of fraud. There are not other requirements other than the use of the mails. And the plain fact of the matter is that Congress did express their opinion, quite clearly and precisely.

Moogie blather 9
The Dorean process was a scheme because.............


It could not legally do what it purported to do, and it was seeking money from the “clients” as well as from other entities for actions it could not do, legally or otherwise, and that the actions taken were to file fraudulent documents as part of the scheme, that constitutes a scheme, and a fraud. The civil court so ruled, and the criminal court found evidence of mail fraud.

Moogie blather 10
The testimony of Walker Todd the Federal Reserve Expert witness...

Yet, there is not one incident of the old liar ever actually testifying about any such thing, in any case at any time, and when it has been attempted, he suddenly turns up silent. So much for the vaunted expert.

Moogie blather 11
With all the lies Judge Alsup told the petite jury, it's no wonder the Dorean Group were convicted.

The judge didn’t, and didn’t have to tell the jury anything, the evidence presented spoke quite eloquently all on its own.

Moogie blather 12
What North Carolina State violation are you referring to specifically?

The NC court enjoined them from deceptive and unfair trade practices, soliciting money for unlawful acts, and filing fraudulent documents, that I can find on quick check, and there were probably more and specific charges later.

Moogie blather 13
Since you want to only take a few words out of context, let's just take off the IMPORTANT PART OF THE LAW & read it & see if it even makes any sense:


That little conjunction or just seems to trip you right up every time. You still can’t read, and you still can’t/don’t think. No big surprise, and you are still quite wrong.

Just keep beating that dead horse Moogs, it’s still dead, and it still isn’t going anywhere.

judge allslop said...

More quat-rot "blather"from the bilge master while the whole systemicaly fraudulent financial empire burns down behind you.Read the 40 minute instruction diatribe to the jury.It would have saved the court time to excuse the jury on the spot.

dr. ira gilac said...

more slop.....

dr. ira gilac said...

now juggins, when yo role on this case, mayke sho yo sit up strate, o yo will be gittin' in the end....agian....






July 23, 2008

SAN DIEGO, July 23 (Reuters) - San Diego City Attorney Michael Aguirre said on Wednesday he filed a lawsuit against Bank of America Corp (BAC.N: Quote, Profile, Research, Stock Buzz) and its Countrywide unit to prevent the mortgage lenders from foreclosing on homes in his city, which he aims to make a "foreclosure sanctuary."

Aguirre plans to file similar lawsuits against Washington Mutual Inc (WM.N: Quote, Profile, Research, Stock Buzz), Wells Fargo & Co (WFC.N: Quote, Profile, Research, Stock Buzz) and Wachovia Corp (WB.N: Quote, Profile, Research, Stock Buzz) in an effort to make the lenders negotiate with mortgage borrowers facing foreclosure.

"We would like to see San Diego become a foreclosure sanctuary," Aguirre said.

Housing markets across Southern California, including the city of San Diego and the county of the same name, are seeing steep increases in foreclosure rates because so many homes bought there earlier this decade involved subprime mortgages and other types of risky loans.

So far this year, 20,000 homes in San Diego County, population 2.9 million, have been lost to foreclosure as borrowers fail to keep up with mortgage payments and some analysts forecast the number may rise to 40,000 by the end of the year.

"We haven't seen the lawsuit and can't comment," said Bank of America spokeswoman Shirley Norton.

In statement provided by Norton, Bank of America said it has been reviewing in detail Countrywide's operations since acquiring the lender earlier this month and the combined company will not sell subprime mortgages.

"We are working hard to combine our two companies and are confident we will be recognized as a leader in responsible lending practices," the statement said.

Aguirre announced the lawsuit, filed in San Diego County Superior Court on Wednesday morning, at a news conference in front of an abandoned, fire-damaged house in a neighborhood hit hard by foreclosures.

The house is now in Countrywide's possession. Boards cover its windows, its front entrance is charred and burned debris is scattered among tall weeds in its yard, the result of a fire set by transients who had moved in, said San Diego Police Department Sgt. James Filley.

Aguirre's lawsuit, brought in the name of the people of California, names four current and former Countrywide officers, including former CEO Angelo Mozilo, and alleges they personally profited from selling shares of the lender's stock while knowing its subprime loans did not comply with company policies.

"The Countrywide executives who originated these subprime loans were engaged in a massive fraud on homeowners, borrowers and investors," Aguirre said. "They enriched themselves by over $1 billion."

"We have the big stick of being found in violation of the law and the carrot of taking something that is a nonperforming asset, that all these houses are, and making it a performing asset by keeping the families in it." (Reporting by Marty Graham in San Diego; Writing by Jim Christie; Editing by Andre Grenon)

www.reuters.com/articlePrint

mogel007 said...

Notarial Dissent said: "If Congress wished to extend the mail fraud statute to extend to property rights ......

Try actually reading the statute Moogs, it says nothing like what you are claiming, it says using the mails to commit fraud.
_______________________________

That's why we have a Supreme Court in order to interpret the law so we know what the law is really talking about. The Supreme Court in McNally v. U.S. made it clear that the statute was for the PURPOSE OF PROTECTING PROPERTY RIGHTS. The criminal trial didn't reveal any evidence of "SPURIOUS COIN, OBLIGATION, SECURITY, OR OTHER ARTICLE OF ANY PARTY" as the statute specifically refers to, much less a financial institution.

"Coin, obligation, security, or other article" is speaking of property, pure & simple, or reference to property rights. You can't use the mails to cheat people/financial institutions, out of these specific mentioned properties, or property rights, through lies & deception by using the mails, because this is mail fraud. Interestingly enough if there is no mail fraud, because the ELEMENTS OF THE CRIME DON'T EXIST, there is NO CONSPIRACY either.

SKY said...

Is there anyplace to see what people in this program have experienced as far as losing their homes, selling, or whatever?

notorial dissent said...

And Moogs proves he still can’t read, and still can’t read for content
The Supreme Court in McNally v. U.S. made it clear that the statute was for the PURPOSE OF PROTECTING PROPERTY RIGHTS.

Not even an adequate try this time Moogs, cases not even remotely similar, and the SC has been overruled on the matter by the Congress, they changed the law to negate the opinion. The case in the original matter was a public official using the mails to defraud his constituents, an intangible according to the court having nothing to do with property, Congress then amended the law removing the SC’s ability to use that argument.

There are two elements to mail fraud, The twin elements of mail fraud—a scheme to defraud and a mailing both of which dim and dimmer met.

The actual text of 18 usc 1341 begins by saying: “Whoever, having devised or intending to devise any scheme or artifice to defraud,” and is followed by a series of at least 4 or clauses, which means that any of them can apply, not all of them, it further goes on to say: (and whoever)“places in any post office or authorized depository for mail matter, any matter or thing whatever to be sent or delivered by the Postal Service,” and finishes by saying: “shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both.” With the final modifier that: “If the violation affects a financial institution, such person shall be fined not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 30 years, or both.”

So, contrary to your protestations, the elements of mail fraud are a scheme and the use of the mails in the scheme. The statute itself defines it as using a scheme or artifice to defraud coupled with using the mails. Contrary to what you would like to believe, there is no requirement for more than those two items. The statute lists a number of things that the fraud can also entail, but not required to contain.

So, again, Moogs, you either are illiterate, or just plain can’t read.

notorial dissent said...

The whole essence of the mail fraud statute is that it requires a fraud, or an attempt at fraud, and the use of the mails. There is no specificity as to what type of fraud, or how it is carried out, or what or who it is against, it just has to be fraud and the use of the mails. Nothing more, nothing less. If the fraud affects a financial institution then the sentencing is hiked. There is NO requirement that it be against a financial institution to be mail fraud though.